DENVER | Main Development Thread #6

[seventwenty]

I'm betting the Jeppesen Terminal generates less revenue because people like drinking near their gate. I'm doubting that changing the (efficient as hell) security system will diminish that notion.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

I'm betting the Jeppesen Terminal generates less revenue because people like drinking near their gate. I'm doubting that changing the (efficient as hell) security system will diminish that notion.

But nerds like us will take the train out to drink in the terminal... if we can.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

But nerds like us will take the train out to drink in the terminal... if we can.

New idea for a(n expensively stupid) pub crawl: We buy a $19 fare on Frontier with no intention of boarding a plane and drink at every airport bar. Or if we can get away with it, we get a round trip for $50 and continue the wonderful "day trip round trip" pub crawl.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by CONative

BTW, 3rd time Stapleton home buyer here! First Eastbridge, then Central Park North, and now Willow Park East. Over 10 years Baby! Who on here can beat that? You newbies...

Alright, so just how many forumers are now all going to be neighbors in Willow Park East? Three?

[BG918]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I used to live in Wash Park in a 3-bedroom townhouse, but as a SITCOM (with just one kid) we found ourselves priced out of obtaining a single-family home that's not the size of B-hut in anyplace in the vicinity.

The desire for more than one bathroom and still being under $500K eliminated Park Hill. The school situation eliminated Whittier and City Park. So it's off to Stapleton for us.

There are 3 bed/3 bath townhomes going up by DU that are under $500K. I'm moving into one this summer. Several other similar developments in the works right around the Louisiana and University light rail stations, that entire neighborhood is rapidly changing. It's only a matter of time before University is being marketed as "Wash Park South".

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by CONative

Yeah, because Wash Park or Congress Park was a model for urbanism when all those single family houses were built decades ago too. Yet, they are respected established city neighborhoods. We have to be realistic about city neighborhoods 6-7 miles from the core (like Wash Park and such), AND the fact the development is a ridiculously large 7.5 square miles. I find it interesting the expectations people have on density and "new urbanism" with such a large development. Forest City never promised Belmar in ALL 7.5 square miles, but people seem to think they did. If Stapleton was the much smaller size of Belmar, it would look like Belmar. As I have always said, Stapleton's "urbanism", walkability, and density will take time, and it is actually happening slowly in the established Stapleton areas (as I have said before). The large parcels of vacant land that Forest City could have tried to surrender are still waiting for the mixed-use it was designed for, and some spots have in fact received it (more mixed use and density) years after development around it. Now, Willow Park East will never be some crazy urban center...but these new neighborhoods get lack of respect because they are new. Those houses in the well-respected Congress Park city neighborhood were new at some point too. Stapleton is not Uptown or Cap Hill, and it isn't supposed to be. The idea is something in between urban and the typical idea of surburban. Stapleton is not another Highlands Ranch, and there are many reasons why it's not THAT surburban. It would be just as close to comparing it to Cap Hill as it is to compare it to Highlands Ranch.

BTW, 3rd time Stapleton home buyer here! First Eastbridge, then Central Park North, and now Willow Park East. Over 10 years Baby! Who on here can beat that? You newbies...

Well then, it sounds like you're offering to drive your SUV. It's clearly bigger than mine.

Where in central Park North are you? That's actually where I'm at. A bunch of my neighbors bailed last year for bigger houses in Conservatory Green.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by CONative

Yeah, because Wash Park or Congress Park was a model for urbanism when all those single family houses were built decades ago too. Yet, they are respected established city neighborhoods. We have to be realistic about city neighborhoods 6-7 miles from the core (like Wash Park and such), AND the fact the development is a ridiculously large 7.5 square miles. I find it interesting the expectations people have on density and "new urbanism" with such a large development. Forest City never promised Belmar in ALL 7.5 square miles, but people seem to think they did. If Stapleton was the much smaller size of Belmar, it would look like Belmar. As I have always said, Stapleton's "urbanism", walkability, and density will take time, and it is actually happening slowly in the established Stapleton areas (as I have said before). The large parcels of vacant land that Forest City could have tried to surrender are still waiting for the mixed-use it was designed for, and some spots have in fact received it (more mixed use and density) years after development around it. Now, Willow Park East will never be some crazy urban center...but these new neighborhoods get lack of respect because they are new. Those houses in the well-respected Congress Park city neighborhood were new at some point too. Stapleton is not Uptown or Cap Hill, and it isn't supposed to be. The idea is something in between urban and the typical idea of surburban. Stapleton is not another Highlands Ranch, and there are many reasons why it's not THAT surburban. It would be just as close to comparing it to Cap Hill as it is to compare it to Highlands Ranch.

BTW, 3rd time Stapleton home buyer here! First Eastbridge, then Central Park North, and now Willow Park East. Over 10 years Baby! Who on here can beat that? You newbies...

I totally agree. With the new 55+ apartments that are being built on MLK, it actually is starting to look urban when you drive in from Quebec.

I've been in Stapleton 10 years now too... all 10 in the same house! (I'm too lazy to move lol!)

[RyanD]

I've decided that when I have kids in a few years, granted I'm still in Denver then, I'll be taking the plunge to Stapleton too.

[bunt_q]

So basically, you are all having kids and moving on to a life in suburbia. You are just doing it with a Denver address, which makes everybody feel better about it. Despite the fact that Stapleton is no more dense or urban than most of what's being built in Lone Tree today. If only we had an endless supply of giant infill sites so we could all live in the suburbs without actually living in the suburbs. Especially Northfield, how is that any different from Commerce City, other than being newer? Basically, Stapleton is Lone Tree for people who work downtown; it's just too far from Stapleton for the other half of the metro that is stuck working in the south suburbs/Tech Center. Maybe those Sun Belt cities that just annex everything have it right. Then nobody ever has to live in the burbs.

[enjo13]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So basically, you are all having kids and moving on to a life in suburbia. You are just doing it with a Denver address, which makes everybody feel better about it. Despite the fact that Stapleton is no more dense or urban than most of what's being built in Lone Tree today. If only we had an endless supply of giant infill sites so we could all live in the suburbs without actually living in the suburbs. Especially Northfield, how is that any different from Commerce City, other than being newer? Basically, Stapleton is Lone Tree for people who work downtown; it's just too far from Stapleton for the other half of the metro that is stuck working in the south suburbs/Tech Center. Maybe those Sun Belt cities that just annex everything have it right. Then nobody ever has to live in the burbs.

Holy shit, I actually agree with bunt about something!

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So basically, you are all having kids and moving on to a life in suburbia. You are just doing it with a Denver address, which makes everybody feel better about it. Despite the fact that Stapleton is no more dense or urban than most of what's being built in Lone Tree today. If only we had an endless supply of giant infill sites so we could all live in the suburbs without actually living in the suburbs. Basically, Stapleton is Lone Tree for people who work downtown; it's just too far from Stapleton for the other half of the metro that is stuck working in the south suburbs/Tech Center. Maybe those Sun Belt cities that just annex everything have it right. Then nobody ever has to live in the burbs.

Yep, and we're leaving downtown to you DINKs and SINKs to try an improve and get a couple of schools that score above a "B". Downtown, being the only option for urban living in the state, has the two big hits of affordability and educational opportunities. Less affordability should eventually lead to to better schools as the poor people are pushed out, but this is also offset by the inability of a good portion of the the upper middle class to reenter the area; ergo, the city center soldifies itself as a wealthy neighborhood.

Non-wealth urban pioneers start rethinking their priorities once the well-being of their offspring come into the equation. While I'd take a townhouse or condo for $400K in the city center, I won't do it when the local school is rated as a "C".

Stapleton might not be any better than Lone Tree (which is a wealthy semi-urban enclave by design, aka Stapleton South except with some cul-de-sacs), but it's a damn sight better than the shit that your clients are throwing up in Parker, Aurora, DougCo, Commerce City, Weld, etc.

[RyanD]

Yep! I've started to come to the realization that I'm a pretty awesome dude, and I'm going to want to continue that legacy. As much as I would love to raise a kid in the Spire type equivalent ~ the year 2020, I also want them to go to a good school, have enough square footage to be comfortable, and get them Christmas presents.

Also, I want my kids to ride trains and appreciate them. Sooooooo, if they live in Central Denver, they're going to miss out on that opportunity.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I could see apartment rents dropping by 25-35% (including incentives) easily at some point.

Please god! Please!!!

As a recent college grad it is IMPOSSIBLE to find anything decent in Denver within my price range.

ridiculous really. I want to live in Denver but am stuck out in lakewood currently.

Hell, I could move to Salt Lake or Boise and live like a king in some of the best neighborhoods for what I am paying now.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Stapleton might not be any better than Lone Tree (which is a wealthy semi-urban enclave by design, aka Stapleton South except with some cul-de-sacs), but it's a damn sight better than the shit that your clients are throwing up in Parker, Aurora, DougCo, Commerce City, Weld, etc.

Shots. Fired.

[The Dirt]

I'm with bunt. I like Stapleton and it was a good compromise. We're exactly half way between where my wife and I work and my daughter, who is special needs, goes to an excellent school. Stapleton is not urban but it is high quality suburban with a Denver address, it's definitely getting more dense, and it will be getting commuter rail next year. I'm fine with that.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

Shots. Fired.

Fire ineffective. Adjust Fire. Fire for Effect. Fire ineffective. Repeat.

[enjo13]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Non-wealth urban pioneers start rethinking their priorities once the well-being of their offspring come into the equation. While I'd take a townhouse or condo for $400K in the city center, I won't do it when the local school is rated as a "C".

That's putting a whole lot faith in those school rankings. Which, for what it's worth, don't really line up with my experience. I attended 9 different public schools growing up (including one in Italy). I graduated from a top-10% school that I'd rank near the bottom in terms of actual academic rigor. That sure helped raise that school rating, however (graduation rate plays an outsize role in those rankings).

My most valuable academic experiences occurred at schools with diverse student bodies from many different socio-economic backgrounds. One of the high schools I attended had an absolutely atrocious graduation rate. Less than 40% of the students went on to college. Yet the faculty was top-notch. I was held to a higher standard than any other school I attended. I got to know fellow students who came from very different experiences. All of that came together to color my worldview. Beyond pure academics it left me more prepared to succeed both in college and as a professional. That school was also the only city school that I attended.

Suburbs preach schools and safety. I think they miss the mark in both. Perhaps Stapleton has found some sort of middle ground here that I'm missing. My experience with it is definitely more Highlands Ranch than Denver.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Yep, and we're leaving downtown to you DINKs and SINKs to try an improve and get a couple of schools that score above a "B". Downtown, being the only option for urban living in the state, has the two big hits of affordability and educational opportunities. Less affordability should eventually lead to to better schools as the poor people are pushed out, but this is also offset by the inability of a good portion of the the upper middle class to reenter the area; ergo, the city center soldifies itself as a wealthy neighborhood.

Non-wealth urban pioneers start rethinking their priorities once the well-being of their offspring come into the equation. While I'd take a townhouse or condo for $400K in the city center, I won't do it when the local school is rated as a "C".

Stapleton might not be any better than Lone Tree (which is a wealthy semi-urban enclave by design, aka Stapleton South except with some cul-de-sacs), but it's a damn sight better than the shit that your clients are throwing up in Parker, Aurora, DougCo, Commerce City, Weld, etc.

Good comments (great humor).

Early on I wondered how successful Stapleton would be? I did think Forest Properties was a great choice. Still, with its general location and competing alternatives, how successful would it be? How well would it be received?

I thought the master plan was masterful. I figured the one thing that would make it successful, ultimately, would be the schools. In hindsight, I can't imagine how things could have gone any better than they have.

[DenverInfill]

Cranetastic!

http://denverinfill.com/blog/2015/02/central-downtown-1401-lawrence-update-6.html

[enjo13]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

In hindsight, I can't imagine how things could have gone any better than they have.

All point of view I guess. For me I can't imagine how it could have gone much worse. Although I really do see suburbanization as a modern evil.