Calgary Public Transit II

[Policy Wonk]

I think openly musing about whether or not a NCLRT or SELRT should be a greater priority is stupid. There is no decision of that type to be made in the foreseeable future. It serves only to rile the people up who either feel that they're entitled to the SELRT next, or feel they have been promised the SELRT is next.

Taking a Centre Street NCLRT to the public granularity they have is even stupider. Here too there is no decision of that type to be made in the foreseeable future. But what makes that stupid is while what is being proposed is plausible, the current mayor and council has no greater ability to execute on their austere street car proposal than the simpletons who will promise subways, subways, subways. The problem is both the incumbents and their challengers are serving up hot air. It isn't a question of a trade-off where the more austere proposal can be built immediately, while a subway is potentially decades away. Any proposal is decades away. Bringing out a buffet sized steamer tray of brussels sprouts is just insane.

If your challenger is rambling about subways, you can say "well I think that's a little premature, nobody knows how funding and technology will have evolved by that time." that is an irrefutable position. But in this instance they have fully fleshed out something that many people will have many different reasons to dislike. But it is every bit as ethereal as the subway promise. They can hire consultants and artists too and insist that they will perfect the art of panhandling outside the Legislature. Back when I was in university I read an article about all the great public works that were soon to be possible for Edmonton and Calgary owing to a windfall of funding that was going to wash over the province... The article was about the Alberta Natural Resources Act and written in 1930.

[joe498]

Not Calgary but I thought it was an interesting read.

Metro Vancouver mayors gear up for transit plebiscite - The proposed 0.5 per cent sales tax boost to fund transit could be a tough sell

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Metro+Vancouver+mayors+gear+transit+plebiscite/10736611/story.html

[joe498]

Naheed Nenshi says Calgary infrastructure financing should be explored

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/na...e-financing-should-be-explored-1.2916452

[Socguy]

Glad to see Nenshi bringing this up:

Interest rates at rock bottom, Calgary years behind in infrastructure and a slowdown coming up...

If not now then when?

[UofC.engineer]

Is anyone planning on going to the SE LRT/Transitway open house tonight at Fort Calgary?

January 20, 2015: Fort Calgary - 750 - 9th Avenue SE

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TI/Pages/Transit-projects/Southeast-Transitway.aspx

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Socguy

Glad to see Nenshi bringing this up:

Interest rates at rock bottom, Calgary years behind in infrastructure and a slowdown coming up...

If not now then when?

Wait until the downturn sends enough fear through the construction sector to bring costs down at least 25%.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Is anyone planning on going to the SE LRT/Transitway open house tonight at Fort Calgary?

January 20, 2015: Fort Calgary - 750 - 9th Avenue SE

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TI/Pages/Transit-projects/Southeast-Transitway.aspx

I wasn't able to make it. Did anyone go?

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

I wasn't able to make it. Did anyone go?

Yeah, I went. Nothing really new was presented, the staging plan remains the same. All I got out of it was construction was to start in 2017 and finish in 2021 for stage 1.

[Govertical]

Went all the way from collingwood to Cranston tonight. Good to see people coming out.

[andasen]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Yeah, I went. Nothing really new was presented, the staging plan remains the same. All I got out of it was construction was to start in 2017 and finish in 2021 for stage 1.

The biggest news I got from the event was that there are reexamining the route from ogden road to Quarry Park Station as they are not certain that the current route works with the settling of the old Ogden landfill. They are exploring options for jumping the alignment to be directly adjacent to 24th rather than set back a ways. The two main alternatives they presented would be to shift the alignment where Ogden Rd diverges from the CP tracks (which would involve expropriation along that entire stretch) or jumping over just past the mobile home park which would run over a corner of the old landfill, this would also be expensive to compensate for. More technical work required.

An interesting conversation I was party to was between a resident of north Ogden and a a member of team discussing whether or not actually building a lynnwood station is needed (the resident lives in the anticipated catchment area. There wasn't a conclusive answer regarding the ability to actual redevelop the area south of the CN tracks that had the IOL contamination.

I had to run to my other job so didn't have the ability to stick around and ask more questions.

[joe498]

One thing that is disappointing about the selrt is that it basically bypasses Riverbend despite going through Quarry park & Ogden.

In all honesty though because of this provinces reluctance to reform taxation, control spending, diversify the economies or give cities power to generate revenue I can't see us ever even building another LRT. Cities depend on provincial money for infrastructure which is spent as fast as it comes in even in the best of oil prices. These Routeahead plans are so far down the road, oil will likely not be sufficient to pay day to day expenses and without a serious change in the populations mindsets, anyone believing we will get a green line without somehow increasing current revenue is merely dreaming.

The SW Ring Road which was a wasteful pricetag to begin with but bound to increase when postponed further is likely in jeopordy merely as a result of low oil prices.

P.S. In other news, city council will approve a new $165m subdivision tomorrow.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by joe498

One thing that is disappointing about the selrt is that it basically bypasses Riverbend despite going through Quarry park & Ogden.

In all honesty though because of this provinces reluctance to reform taxation, control spending, diversify the economies or give cities power to generate revenue I can't see us ever even building another LRT. Cities depend on provincial money for infrastructure which is spent as fast as it comes in even in the best of oil prices. These Routeahead plans are so far down the road, oil will likely not be sufficient to pay day to day expenses and without a serious change in the populations mindsets, anyone believing we will get a green line without somehow increasing current revenue is merely dreaming.

Agreed. Hopefully with the new city charter we can muster enough money to fully build the entire green line...eventually. But I think this is overly optimistic thinking, I can't see LRT running down centre street anytime in the next 20 years.

http://www.660news.com/2015/01/22/provin...ke-progress-on-municipal-government-act/

Originally Posted by joe498

The SW Ring Road which was a wasteful pricetag to begin with but bound to increase when postponed further is likely in jeopordy merely as a result of low oil prices.

P.S. In other news, city council will approve a new $165m subdivision tomorrow.

Which neighborhood is this? I'm actually excited to see Rollin Stanley's new neighborhood plans come to fruition. A return to a grid pattern streets with mixed use development

[joe498]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Agreed. Hopefully with the new city charter we can muster enough money to fully build the entire green line...eventually. But I think this is overly optimistic thinking, I can't see LRT running down centre street anytime in the next 20 years.

http://www.660news.com/2015/01/22/provin...ke-progress-on-municipal-government-act/



Which neighborhood is this? I'm actually excited to see Rollin Stanley's new neighborhood plans come to fruition. A return to a grid pattern streets with mixed use development

East Silverado I believe.

And it appears my pessimism has been verified by the Calgary Herald:

'Civic leaders worry province could delay funding for capital projects due to falling oil'
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...ll-back-capital-funding-amid-falling-oil

[andasen]

Originally Posted by joe498

One thing that is disappointing about the selrt is that it basically bypasses Riverbend despite going through Quarry park & Ogden

As nice as it would be to have the train going down 18th, the densities just don't justify the costs of cutting across Ogden, much more effective to have bus service to South Hill Station via Riverstone Rd and Quarry Park Station. Not significantly different than the South Line relates to communities in the south.

Also the train would no more goes through Ogden and Quarry Park than it would Riverbend. It will go along the edge of all of the communities. It wont be until you get to the 52nd street alignment that you have it running "through" communities.

The only problem with the SE line via Riverbend is that Riverbend just wasn't designed with LRT access in mind (it wasn't that long ago that we only had the one entry/exit from the community)

[joe498]

I was just reading about Gondlas and honestly it makes our transit planning look silly.

The costs associated with and the time it takes to build a gondola far outweigh rail.

Rather than building our trivial stage 1 SETWAY busways which will not only take time to build but also require large amounts of land, long term upkeep of roads which are notoriously pricey in colder climates we could be building a network of gondolas all over the city for much cheaper, not to mention the loss of money in later converting to rail.

The other factor is a cost recovery. Recovering cost from building light rail will take a long time to recover whereas with gondolas they could become profitable much sooner. A big problem the green line faces is how to cross the bow, with gondolas you don't need a bridge.

We are looking into some pretty big cuts on spending and it's quite likely our transit wishes will be soon delayed even further only escalating future costs.

I think a network of gondolas could be extremely effective for this city and it wouldn't break the bank.

Just some rough estimates based on high speed gondola that can achieve 26 mph, Quarry park to 9th avenue is 5.7804 miles. A 13 minute gondola ride is nothing to sneeze at.

Rio de Janeiro



Article explaining skypods:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/13/business/skypods-gondolas-urban-transport/

Brooklyn is also considering this:

[sim]

Originally Posted by joe498

I was just reading about Gondlas and honestly it makes our transit planning look silly.

The costs associated with and the time it takes to build a gondola far outweigh rail.

Rather than building our trivial stage 1 SETWAY busways which will not only take time to build but also require large amounts of land, long term upkeep of roads which are notoriously pricey in colder climates we could be building a network of gondolas all over the city for much cheaper, not to mention the loss of money in later converting to rail.

The other factor is a cost recovery. Recovering cost from building light rail will take a long time to recover whereas with gondolas they could become profitable much sooner. A big problem the green line faces is how to cross the bow, with gondolas you don't need a bridge.

We are looking into some pretty big cuts on spending and it's quite likely our transit wishes will be soon delayed even further only escalating future costs.

I think a network of gondolas could be extremely effective for this city and it wouldn't break the bank.

Just some rough estimates based on high speed gondola that can achieve 26 mph, Quarry park to 9th avenue is 5.7804 miles. A 13 minute gondola ride is nothing to sneeze at.

Rio de Janeiro



Article explaining skypods:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/13/business/skypods-gondolas-urban-transport/

Brooklyn is also considering this:

Now all we have to hope for is that every single origin-destination pair in the corridor is from 9th Ave to Quarry Park...

Monorail!!

[YYCguys]

I rode the train from Downtown to Crowfoot today for the first time in a very long time. I was very impressed with the LRT driver. He came on the PA as we were leaving the free fare zone and introduced himself and thanked all the passengers for riding CT. He gave a little weather update and again thanked us for using CT. I have never heard that before in Calgary, or anywhere for that matter and it was very a welcome treat!

[J-D]

Originally Posted by joe498

I was just reading about Gondlas and honestly it makes our transit planning look silly.

The costs associated with and the time it takes to build a gondola far outweigh rail.

Rather than building our trivial stage 1 SETWAY busways which will not only take time to build but also require large amounts of land, long term upkeep of roads which are notoriously pricey in colder climates we could be building a network of gondolas all over the city for much cheaper, not to mention the loss of money in later converting to rail.

The other factor is a cost recovery. Recovering cost from building light rail will take a long time to recover whereas with gondolas they could become profitable much sooner. A big problem the green line faces is how to cross the bow, with gondolas you don't need a bridge.

We are looking into some pretty big cuts on spending and it's quite likely our transit wishes will be soon delayed even further only escalating future costs.

I think a network of gondolas could be extremely effective for this city and it wouldn't break the bank.

Just some rough estimates based on high speed gondola that can achieve 26 mph, Quarry park to 9th avenue is 5.7804 miles. A 13 minute gondola ride is nothing to sneeze at.

Rio de Janeiro


Article explaining skypods:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/13/business/skypods-gondolas-urban-transport/

Brooklyn is also considering this:

I think you're over simplifying the technology a little bit. Gondolas take time to load/unload and each car only holds a half dozen people.

I have no idea what maintenance costs are like, either.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by joe498

I was just reading about Gondlas and honestly it makes our transit planning look silly.

Brooklyn is also considering this:

I don't know about Brooklyn, but let me know when Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook get their Gondolas!

[PPAR]

There was a semi serious discussion here a year or two ago about a gondola system linking the U of C, Foothills Hospital, and then across the river to Westbrook c-train.
The argument was it allows for high frequency on routes with moderate demand, and can be put in densely developed areas.