Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I believe the formula is GTA=100%, Ottawa=punked

That is exactly the formula, yes.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

From what I gather the Hamilton LRT project is like what LRT of any kind was to Ottawa before the Confederation Line came around--always cancelled, nobody really serious about it. Hamilton City Council just voted last week to get rid of the bus lanes along the exact same route the LRT will go in the future. That should give some sort of idea as to what's going on down there.

Surface light rail is political suicide, almost no local politician in the province wants to touch it with a 10 food pole.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

OK, this is getting quite comical – and not in a good way. If the City was really concerned about way too much traffic congestion, then it needs to think about how THE CITY is doing things.

City's very hypocritical about this. City employees don't have the option of flex time, unless of course your a councillor, mayor or manager.

[cr872190]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

City's very hypocritical about this. City employees don't have the option of flex time, unless of course your a councillor, mayor or manager.

Speaking from 'inside the beast' I can tell you at the very least our department has had discussions about working from home/flex time etc. The problem is (among many other things) MFIPPA, who dictates the privacy of information and currently has no protocol for being able to access select private information remotely (i.e. tax databases/health records from remote servers). And secondly because the vast majority of jobs are 'support staff', which means we support either programs, phone lines or client service centres, which run on a fixed schedule.

It is not impossible, but there is a lot of background work, not unlike other businesses. Some can mobilize quickly, others have higher powers and very strict legal guidelines to follow.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Surface light rail is political suicide, almost no local politician in the province wants to touch it with a 10 food pole.

Empirical examples, please?

[Admiral Nelson]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Surface light rail is political suicide, almost no local politician in the province wants to touch it with a 10 food pole.

^ And it shouldn't be. Modern LRTs don't generate the noise and pollution buses do. Perhaps with greater familiarity with the technology, public/politicos' attitudes will shift.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Empirical examples, please?

Toronto. Toronto. Toronto. Toronto. Hamilton. (Some) Kitchener. Brampton.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Empirical examples, please?

1. Toronto - elected a crackhead who promised to tear up David Miller's surface LRT proposals - even when the province was paying 100% of the bills.

2. Ottawa - Bob Chiarelli - received 15% of the vote and finished 3rd after pushing for a surface light rail system - defeated by a political nobody who targeted the tram

3. Hamilton - Despite offer of 100% provincial funding, has kicked around the proposal for years.

4. Mississagua - Hurontario LRT has been kicked around for years

In more than a decade of Ontario's tram fetish, no surface systems have been built and only one has actually started construction (in KW, where the local voting system is so complicated I don't think the voters figured out how to throw the bums out).

I think the problem is that voters don't care about intensification, TOD, property values, carbon emissions or railfanning. And Canadians don't have the stigma about buses that Americans do. What voters want is something that gets them to their destination faster, or gets other people to their destinations faster (so they get off the road). Most surface trams run at speeds comparable to bus systems (but often less convenient because of lower frequency or the need for more transfers). Confederation Line is politically popular because people can see real benefit in terms of travel times, Smarttrack is politically popular because people can see real benefit in terms of travel times. Surface LRT can't do that.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by acottawa

In more than a decade of Ontario's tram fetish, no surface systems have been built and only one has actually started construction (in KW, where the local voting system is so complicated I don't think the voters figured out how to throw the bums out).

Err, what?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Toronto. Toronto. Toronto. Toronto. Hamilton. (Some) Kitchener. Brampton.

I am trying, and failing, to think of an example in any of those cities where a politician actually brought in a surface rail line, and it cost them their job ("political suicide").

Is there any example? Or is it just Robfordian lunatic hypothetical SUBWAYS SUBWAYS SUBWAYS frothing that we're talking about here?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

In more than a decade of Ontario's tram fetish

A) "tram"?

B) Not much of a "fetish" if not one has actually been built, let alone been built and cost anyone their job.

Confederation Line is politically popular because people can see real benefit in terms of travel times, Smarttrack is politically popular because people can see real benefit in terms of travel times. Surface LRT can't do that.

Confederation Line gives me absolutely zero benefit in my workaday life, and, if Vivi Chi has her way, will make my inside-the-core bus trip even more convenient.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think the problem is that voters don't care about intensification, TOD, property values, carbon emissions or railfanning. And Canadians don't have the stigma about buses that Americans do.

This is a huge factor. The main reason behind the American surface LRT boom is because of the American bus stigma; planners need to convert bus routes to streetcars/trams simply to get people to use them even when the route would operate fine as a bus. Whereas in Canada, buses can actually be allowed to use their efficiency. Once a route is too busy to efficiently be a bus or BRT route, it's often too busy to efficiently be a surface LRT route and you might as well go whole hog and do a metro. That's why in my opinion surface LRT often doesn't make sense in the Canadian context.

Regardless K-W is building their LRT, and at two of Toronto's LRT projects appear to be actually happening now (Sheppard East & Finch West) at least last I checked (Toronto's so hard to keep tabs on with its constant flipping & cancelling!).

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Confederation Line gives me absolutely zero benefit in my workaday life, and, if Vivi Chi has her way, will make my inside-the-core bus trip even more convenient.

Remember that for most, it does. The Transitway trunk has very high ridership. And in terms of every metric (speed, frequency, comfort, reliability) Confederation Line will be a net improvement.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This is a huge factor. The main reason behind the American surface LRT boom is because of the American bus stigma; planners need to convert bus routes to streetcars/trams simply to get people to use them even when the route would operate fine as a bus. Whereas in Canada, buses can actually be allowed to use their efficiency. Once a route is too busy to efficiently be a bus or BRT route, it's often too busy to efficiently be a surface LRT route and you might as well go whole hog and do a metro. That's why in my opinion surface LRT often doesn't make sense in the Canadian context.

Regardless K-W is building their LRT, and at two of Toronto's LRT projects appear to be actually happening now (Sheppard East & Finch West) at least last I checked (Toronto's so hard to keep tabs on with its constant flipping & cancelling!).

I fully agree. In the United States, the use of buses has racial overtones in many cities.

I get the impression that Kitchener-Waterloo is using LRT in order to revitalize and stimulate their two downtown areas. It has been some time, but on my last visit I can remember seeing the deterioration.

I have mixed feelings about street running LRT but at the very least there needs to be a segregated lane. Often this can be achieved at a lower price by using BRT. I believe that Cleveland has had great success doing this on one route.

So really, once you maxed out buses, you really need to consider grade separated rail.

[JM1]

Street Running LRT is common in Europe and it works very well. Low-floor, multiple door LRT vehicles do not take long to load/unload. They are a huge improvement over buses which interefere more with road traffic due to slow loading and unloading.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I fully agree. In the United States, the use of buses has racial overtones in many cities.

I get the impression that Kitchener-Waterloo is using LRT in order to revitalize and stimulate their two downtown areas. It has been some time, but on my last visit I can remember seeing the deterioration.

I have mixed feelings about street running LRT but at the very least there needs to be a segregated lane. Often this can be achieved at a lower price by using BRT. I believe that Cleveland has had great success doing this on one route.

So really, once you maxed out buses, you really need to consider grade separated rail.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I get the impression that Kitchener-Waterloo is using LRT in order to revitalize and stimulate their two downtown areas. It has been some time, but on my last visit I can remember seeing the deterioration.

Both downtowns seem to be doing quite well: new condos, institutional type buildings, hotels, tech companies, etc. I think the main driver is the tech and university sectors, both of which seem mostly focused on the marketing benefits. Ridership projections are only 27k per day (so about an hour's worth of confederation line service) so transportation seems like a secondary concern.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

For those who can not wait to see what these things will be like.

On Thursday, the city will unveil one of the LRT train cars. It will then be showcased at the Aberdeen Pavilion beginning on Friday until the end of March from 8 a.m. until 8 p.m.

Read more: http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/2015-a-year-of-momentum-for-ottawa-mayor-1.2210431#ixzz3QAEr9JNV

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Both downtowns seem to be doing quite well: new condos, institutional type buildings, hotels, tech companies, etc. I think the main driver is the tech and university sectors, both of which seem mostly focused on the marketing benefits. Ridership projections are only 27k per day (so about an hour's worth of confederation line service) so transportation seems like a secondary concern.

Ya, my impression of the Waterloo Region's LRT is that it's being built for economic benefits (to attract investors) and to help refocus the region's growth to be more urban, not because of a critical transportation need.

[eemy]

I think it's a bit short-sighted to only look at the present transportation needs. The Region is strongly supporting intensification in the corridor and has been for some time. The amount of development that has taken place directly along the corridor over the past few years and that continues is staggering for a city this size. LRT is only part of a bigger equation. It might not be an essential component presently, but things will look very different in ten years.

KW is one of the few places in the country that seems to be trying to stay somewhat ahead of the curve instead of continuously playing catch-up like most municipalities.

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Furthermore, it is strange why there is reduced frequency to Baseline only in the AM peak period only, to the point that frequency is worse than in most off-peak hours. Of course, if there is split service between Baseline and Bayshore, frequency gets doubled in all service hours. Transfer wait times start getting quite significant especially in the evening.

I think it was intended as a fairness measure. If all trains start at Baseline and half the traffic comes from Bayshore and points west then that half of the traffic will never get a seat on the trains they board at Lincoln Fields. This way each half gets equivalent service.

Of course Baseline standing folks have the option of hoping off at Lincoln Fields and facing a 3 minutes delay for a good chance at a seat. And Kanata folks in a rush can choose to stand and get 3 minute frequency.