The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

That is a pretty classic reason. I support unions, but that is stupid.

Too bad it was built with too tight of curves to expand to the longer cars.

Also funny about that loops not being able to be used. Was looking at it on Google Earth, that is pretty crazy tight.

Seems like the SRT route has never had a clear vision (and the same seems to be kind of happening again).

ICTS/Skytrain tech is the invention of the Province of Ontario with the SRT as a showcase line to sell the system around the world. It failed with most choosing LRT tech or full metro capacity. They washed their hands of it by basically giving it to Bombardier which tweaked it a little bit and manage to sell a couple systems. Doesn't matter which party is in power, the government has been hellbent on erasing the stain that is the SRT.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

To be fair, the transfer at Bayview in Ottawa will be comparable to the existing transfer at Bloor-Yonge in Toronto.. only much less overcrowded.

It is exactly comparable to the situation at Kennedy. We are creating an added transfer because the rail technology on the two lines is incompatible. It is further comparable because most of the 'potential' traffic is going in the same direction, towards downtown. The time delay required to change platforms and wait for trains is also comparable (5 to 10 minutes) but depending on your destination and the time of day, it could extend to 10 to 15 minutes. If this is really intended to be the trunk line for the south end of the city, this kind of delay is quite significant.

With all that is going on and with the location of Bayview being so far to the west of the centre of downtown, as a south end resident, I still do not see how the O-Train is an attractive option. In fact, all the current plans make all transit options less attractive for travelling downtown. Is this Rapidbus II in the making? It is a real possibility.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Beedok

We should be building transit in all cities to serve those who can't afford alternatives as the necessary base. Expansion beyond that should be about getting people out of cars and onto transit though. (I do feel like Ottawa gives better transit to middle class commuters in the far flung suburbs than to people who need it. Not sure how Toronto compares, but I've seen some complaints that low income areas are under served.)

You may have gotten this impression from reading the Ottawa thread, but I assure that this is not true. Some are venting that transit resources should be focused on the small area that is 'Old Ottawa'. Ottawa is a post war city and implementing that idea would result in a collapse of transit ridership. The old parts of the city generally receive more frequent service than in the suburbs although I understand the frustration that service could be faster and still more frequent. The problem relates to Ottawa's narrow streets in the older parts of the city, which means that congestion and transit reliability is a problem. But the only real solution to this is to build subways. For a city the size of Ottawa, this will be impossible to finance. Furthermore, neighbourhoods close to downtown, which are often heritage districts, are mostly single family homes and this kind of density cannot justify subways.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You may have gotten this impression from reading the Ottawa thread, but I assure that this is not true. Some are venting that transit resources should be focused on the small area that is 'Old Ottawa'. Ottawa is a post war city and implementing that idea would result in a collapse of transit ridership. The old parts of the city generally receive more frequent service than in the suburbs although I understand the frustration that service could be faster and still more frequent. The problem relates to Ottawa's narrow streets in the older parts of the city, which means that congestion and transit reliability is a problem. But the only real solution to this is to build subways. For a city the size of Ottawa, this will be impossible to finance. Furthermore, neighbourhoods close to downtown, which are often heritage districts, are mostly single family homes and this kind of density cannot justify subways.

It wasn't a result of the threads. It was a result of using OC transit. With the U-Pass I've been able to just hop on buses from time to time, and in the inner city the buses are often over crowded, sometimes having to drive past people, and super slow. Meanwhile suburban routes drive around the trans-greenbelt areas for prolonged periods of time with more or less no one on board. Gatineau is worse though. If you're a commuter to downtown (especially on the Ottawa side) transit is wonderful I'm sure, but try to do anything else and you're in trouble.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Beedok

It wasn't a result of the threads. It was a result of using OC transit. With the U-Pass I've been able to just hop on buses from time to time, and in the inner city the buses are often over crowded, sometimes having to drive past people, and super slow. Meanwhile suburban routes drive around the trans-greenbelt areas for prolonged periods of time with more or less no one on board. Gatineau is worse though. If you're a commuter to downtown (especially on the Ottawa side) transit is wonderful I'm sure, but try to do anything else and you're in trouble.

That may be the case for local routes but they receive pretty basic service and making it worse really amounts to offering no service at all, like what happens in American cities. We really don't want to go in that direction. Even on suburban routes during peak periods, you will often get the same crowding issue. A lot of this goes back to the route rationalization process a few years back, when they cut service to bare bones and basically only add another run on a particular route if crowding becomes unmanageable. This is a reflection of current municipal budgeting and politics. Part of this also relates to downtown transit congestion, which will improve with the opening of the downtown subway in 2018.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is exactly comparable to the situation at Kennedy. We are creating an added transfer because the rail technology on the two lines is incompatible. It is further comparable because most of the 'potential' traffic is going in the same direction, towards downtown. The time delay required to change platforms and wait for trains is also comparable (5 to 10 minutes) but depending on your destination and the time of day, it could extend to 10 to 15 minutes. If this is really intended to be the trunk line for the south end of the city, this kind of delay is quite significant.

With all that is going on and with the location of Bayview being so far to the west of the centre of downtown, as a south end resident, I still do not see how the O-Train is an attractive option. In fact, all the current plans make all transit options less attractive for travelling downtown. Is this Rapidbus II in the making? It is a real possibility.

There are always transfers required in any transit system because no system can offer one seat rides for everybody from their origin to their destination. Good transit systems are characterized by lots of interconnections to other transit be it to bus, subway, streetcars/trams, LRT, intercity rail and airports. Transit systems are built up over time so don't expect that what you see now will be the future network. Comparing transfers at Bayview to those at Kennedy and discounting transfers at Bloor & Younge as incomparable is nonsense because a transfer is the same whether you are switching technology or not. Transfers are what promotes the interconnectedness of a system as they allow the network as a whole to increase ridership.
The plan in Ottawa has always been to ultimately convert the DMU O-Train to LRT. When this is done there will not be any difference in rail technology but don't expect the N-S line to interline with the E-W line through downtown just because of shared technology. Patience is required as the frequency is slowly getting to where the transfer will become seamless with respect to time. Increased improvements beyond what is proposed in Phase 2 will take increased ridership, route expansion and obviously double tracking to reduce travel and interconnection time. When the N-S frequency is on par with the E-W frequency, transfers at Bayview will be no different than transfers at any location on the TTC or any other transit system for that matter.
Since the main commuter flow in Ottawa is east to west vs south to north, the O-Train although being dealt with less importance is still getting upgrades. If a bus or train came by my neighbourhood every 9 minutes I would be thrilled, but that is not to say that I wouldn't want service every 5 minutes either. In my neighbourhood I have neither O-Train or LRT service. Just remember the maximum time you will wait is 9 minutes, you may end up waiting less than 2 minutes depending upon scheduling.

[eemy]

It's worth pointing out that the TTC actually tried interlining subways between the Bloor-Danforth line and Yonge-University early on. There were three lines, Yonge-University-Danforth, Yonge-University-Bloor, and Bloor-Danforth. The lower Bay Station is a relic of that time.

They came to realize that this wasn't really a workable solution and switched to requiring a transfer off the Bloor-Danforth line at Yonge & Bloor (which, incidentally is about as far from the financial district as Bayview is from the central part of the CBD in Ottawa). Other systems do interline successfully, but the point is that requiring a transfer is not necessarily the end of the world. Bringing the technology on the Trillium Line in line with the Confederation Line won't necessarily solve the problem either, as by that time, the frequency on the Confederation will probably be close to max already.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

That may be the case for local routes but they receive pretty basic service and making it worse really amounts to offering no service at all, like what happens in American cities. We really don't want to go in that direction. Even on suburban routes during peak periods, you will often get the same crowding issue. A lot of this goes back to the route rationalization process a few years back, when they cut service to bare bones and basically only add another run on a particular route if crowding becomes unmanageable. This is a reflection of current municipal budgeting and politics. Part of this also relates to downtown transit congestion, which will improve with the opening of the downtown subway in 2018.

I'm not saying we should ignore the suburban regions, it just seems like more could be done for the inner city, that's all.

Also, I think I just heard on CHCH that Hamilton got a confirmation for 100% LRT funding, but I might have misheard.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

It's worth pointing out that the TTC actually tried interlining subways between the Bloor-Danforth line and Yonge-University early on. There were three lines, Yonge-University-Danforth, Yonge-University-Bloor, and Bloor-Danforth. The lower Bay Station is a relic of that time.

They came to realize that this wasn't really a workable solution and switched to requiring a transfer off the Bloor-Danforth line at Yonge & Bloor (which, incidentally is about as far from the financial district as Bayview is from the central part of the CBD in Ottawa). Other systems do interline successfully, but the point is that requiring a transfer is not necessarily the end of the world. Bringing the technology on the Trillium Line in line with the Confederation Line won't necessarily solve the problem either, as by that time, the frequency on the Confederation will probably be close to max already.

Exactly. It has been proven in Toronto that when you have two high volume high frequency rapid transit lines, it's actually worse to interline them.

If/when Ottawa upgrades the Trillium Line to Confederation Line type service (with comparable frequencies and capacities), there will still be a transfer at Bayview in all likelihood, and that will be a good thing.

In Toronto the bulk of transfer traffic at Bloor-Yonge is going in the same direction--from B-D westbound to Y-U-S southbound in the AM, opposite direction in the PM. Bayview will be similar sort of thing--most traffic going Trillium nortbound to Confederation eastbound in the AM. But there will be a flow of traffic doing other directions. Whereas with Kennedy, literally 100% of transfer traffic is going between the same two lines because that's the only possible way. Bayview would be analogous to Kennedy only if the Confederation Line ended at Bayview.

[Innsertnamehere]

^ yea Twitter is exploding about Hamilton LRT funding

[SteelTown]

https://twitter.com/AdrianMorrow/status/559762183710855168

Adrian Morrow ‏@AdrianMorrow

.@FredEisenberger says @Kathleen_Wynne has committed full provincial capital funding for Hamilton LRT #onpoli


Adrian Morrow @AdrianMorrow · 34m 34 minutes ago

Eisenberger says the province will pay full price of LRT, no matter the cost. So if cost goes up, province will cover that #onpoli

Adrian Morrow @AdrianMorrow · 31m 31 minutes ago

"We've got a firmer commitment on funding than we've ever had before," @FredEisenberger says #onpoli

Adrian Morrow @AdrianMorrow · 14m 14 minutes ago

Eisenberger said province also wants Hamilton to integrate LRT with GO, likely via a spur from B-line to James North station #onpoli

[SteelTown]

Premier Wynne guarantees Hamilton LRT funding

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5276107-premier-wynne-guarantees-hamilton-lrt-funding-report/

Ontario's premier has committed to pay 100% of the capital costs for Hamilton's LRT project no matter the final price tag, the Globe and Mail is reporting.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger met with Premier Kathleen Wynne for the first time Monday morning since his reelection and said he intended to ask about the province's commitment to rapid transit in the city.

Wynne has promised 100% funding for rapid transit in the past, but never specified for what project.

A Globe reporter on Twitter quoted Eisenberger after the meeting saying "we've got a firmer commitment on funding than we've ever had before."

It's unclear where Hamilton stands in the queue for rapid transit funding, since several other cities are competing for cash.

More to come.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Premier Wynne guarantees Hamilton LRT funding

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5276107-premier-wynne-guarantees-hamilton-lrt-funding-report/

Ontario's premier has committed to pay 100% of the capital costs for Hamilton's LRT project no matter the final price tag, the Globe and Mail is reporting.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger met with Premier Kathleen Wynne for the first time Monday morning since his reelection and said he intended to ask about the province's commitment to rapid transit in the city.

Wynne has promised 100% funding for rapid transit in the past, but never specified for what project.

A Globe reporter on Twitter quoted Eisenberger after the meeting saying "we've got a firmer commitment on funding than we've ever had before."

It's unclear where Hamilton stands in the queue for rapid transit funding, since several other cities are competing for cash.

More to come.

Let's build the whole BLAST network under this guarantee.

[Coldrsx]

Valley line update for our main hub Churchill station.








January 27 Council Meeting
edmonton.ca

[lrt's friend]

I would say that the comparison with Kennedy is more appropriate than with Bloor and Yonge because Bayview is a terminal station for the Trillium Line. Everybody has to transfer and if it is successful, at least 75% will be going downtown. If it is not successful at moving passengers downtown (which is the current case), then we have screwed up.

My understanding is that situation at Bloor and Yonge is highly undesirable because of train congestion. The argument has been made that trains offer predictability which allows you to plan your trip. If trains are overloaded, then this goes out the window. There is no question that the Confederation Line will be at peak passenger loads at Bayview so this is where train overloading is most likely to happen.

Regardless, the Bayview comment was only part of my original comment that indicated that passengers will sometimes have to take 4 transit vehicles to reach downtown. This is guaranteed to have hiccups and for the size of the city of Ottawa, it is ridiculous to expect passengers to endure this on a day to day basis.

The further problem with current plan is that it will be so difficult to double track that every other possibility will be implemented first. Can you imagine what would happen if a double car DMU arrived at Bayview station with 500 passengers on it?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

My understanding is that situation at Bloor and Yonge is highly undesirable because of train congestion. The argument has been made that trains offer predictability which allows you to plan your trip. If trains are overloaded, then this goes out the window. There is no question that the Confederation Line will be at peak passenger loads at Bayview so this is where train overloading is most likely to happen.

The Confederation Line's capacity is so high that we're not going to run into problems there. Nobody's going to be turned away from Confederation Line trains because they're overloaded, even as far in as Bayview. On opening day (20tph + 96m trains yielding a capacity of 12,000pphpd) even on the busiest trip of the day at the busiest point on the line the train will still only be 90% full. Not to mention capacity can be increased from 12,000 to 18,000 by increasing to 30tph, which can be done with no capital work as the system can grow to 30tph out of the box. After that capacity can be increased to 22,000 by lengthening the platforms to 120m (which are roughed in already, so very minimal work to do), and further increased to 30,000 by installing ATC allowing an increase to 40tph (also roughed in).

To summarize the numbers, ridership on the Confederation Line would have to literally triple from the 2018 start numbers, before people would start being turned away at Bayview because of full trains.

It will be a very long time, until at least 2050, before Bayview starts to have the crush load problems that Bloor-Yonge has.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I would say that the comparison with Kennedy is more appropriate than with Bloor and Yonge because Bayview is a terminal station for the Trillium Line. Everybody has to transfer and if it is successful, at least 75% will be going downtown. If it is not successful at moving passengers downtown (which is the current case), then we have screwed up.

My understanding is that situation at Bloor and Yonge is highly undesirable because of train congestion. The argument has been made that trains offer predictability which allows you to plan your trip. If trains are overloaded, then this goes out the window. There is no question that the Confederation Line will be at peak passenger loads at Bayview so this is where train overloading is most likely to happen.

Regardless, the Bayview comment was only part of my original comment that indicated that passengers will sometimes have to take 4 transit vehicles to reach downtown. This is guaranteed to have hiccups and for the size of the city of Ottawa, it is ridiculous to expect passengers to endure this on a day to day basis.

The further problem with current plan is that it will be so difficult to double track that every other possibility will be implemented first. Can you imagine what would happen if a double car DMU arrived at Bayview station with 500 passengers on it?

The Trillium line is not expected to exceed capacity until 2030. Furthermore, a double DMU arriving at Bayview will also discharge passengers destined to Tunny's Pasture. Not all passengers on the Confederation line travelling east will go downtown, leaving room for northbound passengers travelling east. Even if the Trillium line DMU is full, people discharging from the Confederation line will only have to wait a maximum of 9 minutes for the next train. Depending upon scheduling the maximum wait time could be far less than 9 minutes.

It will not be difficult to double track the Trillium line. South of The Rideau River there are no obstacles to double tracking with the exception Heron and Walkley Road bridges. These can be done with rapid replacement techniques as there ia substantial vacant land on or near the right of way.

If a rail/rail grade separation is required by Via Rail at the Ellwood Interlocking then a detour can be built along with the technique used on Belfast Rd entrance to the maintenance yard under Via Rail tracks.

The bridge over the Rideau River can be expanded without any interruption of service by installing the girders at night after the pier extensions have been completed.

The obstacle to tunnelling under Dows Lake is financial not technical. The tunnel could be done with the use of coffer dams and then cut and cover or by boring. It is likely there will be disruption expanding the cut to the tunnel portal from Carling station.

The replacement of the Carling Ave bridge may require a temporary detour and or lane closures while work is completed.

From Carling to Gladstone most of the trench can be expanded without blasting by drilling and excavating with an excavator at nighttime. The Hwy 417 bridge over the tracks may be okay depending upon the distance between the existing bridge pillars. Otherwise this bridge will require some major work resulting in lane closures as lanes are closed to replace pillars and girders.

To double track from Gladstone to Bayview is not an issue at all.

The work has to be done in stages over 10 to 15 years to minimize disruption to O-Train schedules but it is not unrealistic. Clearly from the current expansion the City can only manage one part at a time.

[ssiguy]

Funding 100% of Hamilton's LRT is patently unfair.

Why should LRT in GTHA get built free and grata from the province while Kitchener and Ottawa have to fork over local money for their own systems?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Funding 100% of Hamilton's LRT is patently unfair.

Why should LRT in GTHA get built free and grata from the province while Kitchener and Ottawa have to fork over local money for their own systems?

I think the Mayor spoke before he should have.

[caltrane74]

Looks like Hamilton and Mississauga will get LRT cash from the province. Pretty sure the Premier will squeeze the cash right out of them on the back end though. Nothing in life is free...