The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I understand that fare increases are a necessity, but I hate that the cost of a Metropass (unlimited monthly pass) keeps rising at a faster rate than single fares. It seems like only a few years ago that the cost of a

I understand fares needing to go up. But Toronto is seriously getting into a situation where driving will be cheaper (for people who already have a car. Which is a large number of TTC users).

I know people who live right on the subway line who don't have Metropasses anymore, because it is cheaper for them just to use tokens, as they tend to walk for errands and stuff.
But here is the thing. Without the Metropass, a trip downtown to the movies or dinner would cost two adult tokens for each direction. But since they have a car that sits in the driveway most of time (as they bike and take transit to work), they just hop in the car and go downtown and pay for parking, as it is still cheaper than round trip fare on the TTC.

If the Metropass was cheaper, then one person in the family would probably already have it. And adding in another fare to go out would work out better than driving.

A lot of families are like this, where they have access to a car, and the high TTC fares make it cheaper to drive.

GO fares are even more of an issue. It literally is cheaper to drive downtown on the weekend, than take the train, if you have any more than one person going .

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I understand fares needing to go up. But Toronto is seriously getting into a situation where driving will be cheaper (for people who already have a car. Which is a large number of TTC users).

I know people who live right on the subway line who don't have Metropasses anymore, because it is cheaper for them just to use tokens, as they tend to walk for errands and stuff.
But here is the thing. Without the Metropass, a trip downtown to the movies or dinner would cost two adult tokens for each direction. But since they have a car that sits in the driveway most of them (as they bike and take transit to work), they just hop in the car and go downtown and pay for parking, as it is still cheaper than round trip fare on the TTC.

If the Metropass was cheaper, then one person in the family would probably already have it. And adding in another fare to go out would work out better than driving.

A lot of families are like this, where they have access to a car, and the high TTC fares make it cheaper to drive.

GO fares are even more of an issue. It literally is cheaper to drive downtown on the weekend, than take the train, if you have any more than one person going .

That's also the case with VIA Rail. I go back and forth from Kingston to Ottawa, and it is way cheaper for me to drive, especially at current gas prices. Plus I'm not tied down to their limited schedule.

[TorontoDrew]

Well families with kids under twelve can now take them on the TTC for free. Until the feds start to invest into transit we will be left having to pick up the tab as users. A 10 cent increase is very very reasonable considering what we will gain here and to undo the damage of the Ford years. CP24 was out on the streets last night asking people what they thought and every single person said the fare increase was reasonable.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I understand that fare increases are a necessity, but I hate that the cost of a Metropass (unlimited monthly pass) keeps rising at a faster rate than single fares. It seems like only a few years ago that the cost of a Metropass was equivalent to something like 45 tokens, now it's going up to 51. Meanwhile the cash fare has been frozen for the past few years are now barely any higher than the cost of a token. It's really the TTC's most frequent users who are being hit the hardest.

I'm not one of those ex-Torontonians that thinks that the TTC is the worst transit system out there. Far from it. I defend the TTC, and even make a point in telling people that under people like Andy Byford and Brad Ross, the TTC has become quite a responsive, customer-focused transit agency (that's not saying much in North America, but still).

However, the TTC has - and here I'm pretty confident in my answer - the worst fare structure and worst attitude toward fare collection/reform of any big city in NA.

Everything about the TTC and fares is one giant clusterfuck:

- pass holders are the most penalized, while infrequent cash users are the most "rewarded" by the TTC's fare structure;
- the primary fare media, the token, is an unwieldy piece of 1930s technology that is easy to lose and non-transferable to groups (students, seniors) that receive a concession;
- as a result, non-Metropass holding students, seniors, and day pass holders do not have access to automatic fare entrances and have to make a detour to use the subway.
- The GTA actually has a pretty decent Smart Card system, Presto, that the TTC is rolling out at a glacial pace. Because so many regional trips involve the TTC, the usefulness of Presto is limited by the TTC's stubborn refusal to adapt. Seriously, it seems that subway stations are faster to install elevators than they are to install a PResto reader on 1 turnstile.
- A week pass only starts on the Monday of that week and is therefore completely useless to most people who would buy a week pass (e.g. tourists),
- The day pass is a scratch and win.
- The day pass is also only useful for the calendar day, and therefore useless to people who spend 24 hours overnight in a city.
- There is no zone system so a trip from Rouge Hill to Long Branch costs the same as taking the subway 1 stop.
- There is no fare integration with regional systems that connect to the TTC.
- Almost no subway stations accept credit or debit cards for payment.
- Outside of the subway system (which doesn't cover a large chunk of Toronto), it is difficult to know where to buy TTC tickets and passes. Here is a list. As you can see, it's sold in Shopper's Drug Marts, but not all Shopper's Drug Marts.

It goes on like this...

[Innsertnamehere]

All subway stations accept credit or debit provided you are buying a certain amount of tokens. Mind you that is a very recent thing.

PRESTO is being accelerated now too, all streetcars will have it before the end of the year, all buses by september 2016, and the entire system will be done by the end of 2016.

[WhipperSnapper]

Stop the insanity. Everyone knows having cash in advance is hugely beneficial over pay as you go so, why does the TTC not only continue but, put even more burden on those that buy a pass at the start of the month? $3 isn't an outrageous cash fare either. No reason not to increase it to encourage more to consider a pass. Overall, I'm sure the number of people paying cash is rather small but, at the same time, it should be small; very small.

Has been over two years since debit machine have been added, no?

[ssiguy]

The TTC seems to go out of it's way to make the Metropass as unappealing as possible.
I thought the whole idea was to encourage transit use as your primary source of transportation.

Much of the lack of fare integration is due to spineless politicians who refuse to bring in transit taxes like gas taxes. Those other cities have a fare larger subsidy but that's because they get their funds thru, in part, special local taxes exclusively for transit. Torontonians can't get their heads around that and until they do there will be no fare integration with GO or any of the other local transit agencies.

[big W]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Well families with kids under twelve can now take them on the TTC for free. Until the feds start to invest into transit we will be left having to pick up the tab as users. A 10 cent increase is very very reasonable considering what we will gain here and to undo the damage of the Ford years. CP24 was out on the streets last night asking people what they thought and every single person said the fare increase was reasonable.

I actually have a problem in a sense with this statement as transit is not in their jurisdiction. It should read Until the province of Ontario. I would rather the feds invest into something that is under their jurisdiction and do it properly instead. Basically VIA Rail should provide much better service across all of Canada, like linking all major cities in Canada and high speed rail in the Quebec-Windsor corridor as a start. The Province of Ontario should be making huge investments into the TTC with or without the feds but then again that goes for every provincial government making proper investments into their own cities mass transit system.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

That's also the case with VIA Rail. I go back and forth from Kingston to Ottawa, and it is way cheaper for me to drive, especially at current gas prices. Plus I'm not tied down to their limited schedule.

Personal question, but how old are you? If you're under 26 the VIA discounts are killer. I'm an insanely frequent train user but that may fall away after my 26th birthday...

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by big W

I actually have a problem in a sense with this statement as transit is not in their jurisdiction. It should read Until the province of Ontario. I would rather the feds invest into something that is under their jurisdiction and do it properly instead. Basically VIA Rail should provide much better service across all of Canada, like linking all major cities in Canada and high speed rail in the Quebec-Windsor corridor as a start. The Province of Ontario should be making huge investments into the TTC with or without the feds but then again that goes for every provincial government making proper investments into their own cities mass transit system.

As long as the feds keep sucking money out of their cash cow called Toronto we should keep expecting them to invest back and that includes transportation. Yes the Ontario government needs to invest more as well but the conservative party has continued to show both back during the provincial level under Harris and now at the federal level with Harper they they don't care about Toronto. Wynn is finally working with the city so their is hope there.

In total, the province is paying about $10.7 billion, the feds $1.03 billion one current transit upgrades, meanwhile the feds take untold billions from the GTA each year and we see very little in the way of investment back in our city from them.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ By all means suggest cuts at the federal level you want to fund this extra infrastructure investment.

[1overcosc]

51 trips is insane. Most other cities go with a ratio of 30-40. Why the heck is the TTC encouraging people to use tokens and cash in place of montly passes?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

As long as the feds keep sucking money out of their cash cow called Toronto we should keep expecting them to invest back and that includes transportation. Yes the Ontario government needs to invest more as well but the conservative party has continued to show both back during the provincial level under Harris and now at the federal level with Harper they they don't care about Toronto. Wynn is finally working with the city so their is hope there.

The Federal government has always stayed out of municipal affairs. I don't think that Harper is setting a precedent. In fact, I would argue that Harper has spent more on Toronto than the Liberals under Chretien/Martin.

I wouldn't just say that there is "hope" under Wynn. Let's put things in perspective: there is more money being spent on new transit infrastructure in Toronto (the City!) than the rest of Canada combined right now.

Toronto is not being shortchanged.

[eemy]

In fairness, Ontario pretty much had a freeze on infrastructure spending during the Chretien years thanks to Mike Harris and his successors.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

In fairness, Ontario pretty much had a freeze on infrastructure spending during the Chretien years thanks to Mike Harris and his successors.

Everywhere did pretty much. By 2000 Alberta had started building again instead of just maintaining old things.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Stop the insanity. Everyone knows having cash in advance is hugely beneficial over pay as you go so, why does the TTC not only continue but, put even more burden on those that buy a pass at the start of the month? $3 isn't an outrageous cash fare either. No reason not to increase it to encourage more to consider a pass. Overall, I'm sure the number of people paying cash is rather small but, at the same time, it should be small; very small.

I don't have the survey's to tell for sure. But apparantely poorer riders tend to pay with cash more, as they don't have money to buy a pass. So raising the cash fare is seen as hurting the poor.
At least that is what I remember from years ago when the cash fare was brought up.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

51 trips is insane. Most other cities go with a ratio of 30-40. Why the heck is the TTC encouraging people to use tokens and cash in place of montly passes?

The TTC views increased ridership as an increase in the subsidy required to operate the TTC. This makes sense if you have to add buses to carry the loads. But a lot of the ridership increase was in off peak times, when existing service is not always packed on every bus route. So I don't believe it is an increase in subsidy for all new riders.
But that is how the TTC views it, and they therefore have not been happy with how much Metropass users were using the system. A lot of ridership has come from the Metropass.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I don't have the survey's to tell for sure. But apparantely poorer riders tend to pay with cash more, as they don't have money to buy a pass. So raising the cash fare is seen as hurting the poor.
At least that is what I remember from years ago when the cash fare was brought up.

GO's way of dealing with passes for Presto users is really great in that context. Pay a regular fare until you reach a certain number of rides, and then everything is free for the rest of the month (at least that's how I think it work, am I wrong?).

[MexiQuebecois]

City hall votes to kill the downtown Hamilton bus lane
City staff will spend about $100,000 to get rid of the transit lane

Hamilton city council has voted to get rid of its controversial downtown bus lane.

With a Wednesday night council vote, city staff will spend about $100,000 to get rid of the transit lane, which runs from Mary to Dundurn Streets.

It was a close vote, with councillors voting 9-7 to get rid of the lane. Coun. Chad Collins moved the motion.

City staff said Thursday morning the bus lane will still be in effect until city staff remove the signage above the lane. City staff are expected meet before the week is finished to formulate a plan to remove the signs and markings.

Coun. Aidan Johnson of Ward 1 tried unsuccessfully to save the lane, reintroducing a motion from last week to modify the lane with better signalling, and shifting part a portion of the lane. Better transit benefits the economy, he said, and Hamilton's growing number of seniors.

"With some reforms, it can be a way to travel that respects the rights of car users on our roads," he said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/n...the-downtown-hamilton-bus-lane-1.2927165



Killing bus lanes?

[ssiguy]

When they make short sighted decisions like that, Hamilton doesn't deserve any LRT money.

What exactly are people bitching about anyway?. I recall Hamilton's downtown having quite a few of wide roadways. Surely they don't think one little bus lane hurts that? Spending money on a bus lane only to spend $100k to tear it down............this is why taxpayers have such little confidence in politicians.