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  #6261  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
Philly is a lot like an onion. There are many layers to Philly from the wealthy to the poor; the pretty to the ugly; the lack of pretentiousness to full pretensions; the ability to roam a big city and not feel trap; a very good diverse crowd of white collar and blue collar workers to meet and mingle with, artists, tree-huggers, college students, grad students, scientist, entrepreneurs, fine restaurants and greasy spoons, museums, and everything in between. That's what makes Philly special...we are not insulated like some other cities and we don't need the unwarranted national or international limelight (for obvious reasons if you follow the news), but yes occasional we will get it (i.e., Pope 2015) and it serves us well. Philly offers the full spectrum of a REAL city...real social and economic triumphs and issues and yes we have some disadvantages, but it's a city that is hard to be bore of...especially the recent building boom not just from local but national developers. Philly is the best that's it been in a while...

Yep , sort of what I was trying to say back in post 6243 , only you did a much better job of it . Congrats .
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  #6262  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 5:11 PM
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Surface parking lot at the site of the Market St. collapse? WTF? Did I miss something?

http://www.philadelinquency.com/2015/01/18/market-street-collapse-lot-become-surface-parking/
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  #6263  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 6:09 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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Surface parking lot at the site of the Market St. collapse? WTF? Did I miss something?

http://www.philadelinquency.com/2015/01/18/market-street-collapse-lot-become-surface-parking/
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I sure hope the fucking Center City Residents Association and Center City District wake the fuck up from their slumber and step up to stymie this horrible idea (i.e., appeal the permit to L&I and force a hearing).
Why would they stymie a parking lot? NIMBYs love parking as much as they hate shadow-casting, view-blocking, traffic-causing high rises. They'll argue that a parking lot is needed to deal with the throngs of people who will be flocking to the city from across the world to see the Market Street Building Collapse Memorial Park.
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  #6264  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 6:38 PM
BenKatzPhillytoParis BenKatzPhillytoParis is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
Why would they stymie a parking lot? NIMBYs love parking as much as they hate shadow-casting, view-blocking, traffic-causing high rises. They'll argue that a parking lot is needed to deal with the throngs of people who will be flocking to the city from across the world to see the Market Street Building Collapse Memorial Park.
Fortunately I do think CCRA is better than this and will see it for what it is.
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  #6265  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 6:40 PM
UrbanRevival UrbanRevival is offline
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
C'mon, they are kind of better in many (not all, of course) ways, particularly New York. I mean, I'm Philly through and through, but no city in North America holds a candle to New York.

Boston is kind of small, but its downtown hits way above the city's weight class. It has a much more sophisticated tradition of urban design than Philly. Part of that has to do with the fact that it's always been more of a white collar than a blue collar city. Working class cities like Philly never had as much time for the niceties of more bourgeois cities.
I think that's an oversimplification. Just like Philly, New York and Boston have also had historically mixed economies -- with robust blue collar and white collar industries co-existing. It's only today that these cities are essentially synonymous with "bougie" white-collar industries, and it's assumed that's how it's always been. How quickly the "mill town" past for Massachusetts has been forgotten. Similarly for the industrial prowess of New York. Anyone who's even slightly familiar with much of Boston outside of Beacon Hill/Back Bay and Downtown Crossing (and ditto for New York outside of Manhattan) would quickly realize that these cities are far more economically diverse than even current reputation suggests.

Philadelphia has indeed taken more time than other post-industrial cities to diversify itself (and the fruits of diversification have largely been found in the suburbs), but the trajectory of the city in terms of embracing the knowledge economy has never been more clear than today.

In terms of urban design, of course no American city comes close to the extremely ambitious vision and financial resources of New York, but I fail to see a "much more sophisticated" history in Boston versus Philadelphia. The most visionary project I can think of for Boston is the "Big Dig" (which was not exactly a smooth success, given the terrible taste it left in the mouths of many people). Otherwise, it's further along in revitalizing its core -- but, fundamentally, aside from more business success, Philadelphia has adopted the exact same the same urban planning principles as Boston (e.g., close-knit, mixed-use, multi-modal urban neighborhoods underpinned by continuing growth in the knowledge economy).

Last edited by UrbanRevival; Jan 20, 2015 at 7:18 PM.
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  #6266  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
C'mon, they are kind of better in many (not all, of course) ways, particularly New York. I mean, I'm Philly through and through, but no city in North America holds a candle to New York.

Boston is kind of small, but its downtown hits way above the city's weight class. It has a much more sophisticated tradition of urban design than Philly. Part of that has to do with the fact that it's always been more of a white collar than a blue collar city. Working class cities like Philly never had as much time for the niceties of more bourgeois cities.
She is very careful to pick only certain cities when comparing Philadelphia. NYC is not comparable more many reasons and yet she often tries the "you would never see a parking garage in Manhattan" argument. She ignores the the fact that real estate prices are by and large the driving force behind some of the trends that she loves in NYC. Its not simply about higher standards or a city government that decides every aspect of design. When office rents and condo prices are higher, the developers budget is higher and it allows them to incorporate more pricey features (like sub-grade garages or hi tech facilities with small footprints like 1706 Rittenhouse) but she will not acknowledge that. The reality is that 95% of US cities have above grade parking facilities as part of commercial or institutional development projects, even if those projects are near the core of the city. Its not necessarily a good thing, but in some cases the numbers wont work if you have to bury 300 cars underground as a part of a project. That is especially the case in areas that dont have NYC's land value or stratospheric property prices.
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  #6267  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 7:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Philly Fan View Post
For anyone interested, here is GarCastle's post containing the photos of the model of the possible new Penn Medicine towers:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=6666960&postcount=4075
Looks like four 20 story towers which would jive with 700 beds and modern low rise hospital design
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  #6268  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 8:05 PM
BenKatzPhillytoParis BenKatzPhillytoParis is offline
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Originally Posted by sayitaintso View Post
Looks like four 20 story towers which would jive with 700 beds and modern low rise hospital design
That model looks very preliminary to me. More like one possibility for massing. Foster + Partners just got announced as the architect and media have identified it as "a tower", so I think all we know is that it will be big and likely be well-designed. 700 beds though is a huge number by contemporary standards in any case.

Maybe GarCastle will stumble across additional insider info in the future ;-)
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  #6269  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanRevival View Post
I think that's an oversimplification. Just like Philly, New York and Boston have also had historically mixed economies -- with robust blue collar and white collar industries co-existing. It's only today that these cities are essentially synonymous with "bougie" white-collar industries, and it's assumed that's how it's always been. How quickly the "mill town" past for Massachusetts has been forgotten. Similarly for the industrial prowess of New York. Anyone who's even slightly familiar with much of Boston outside of Beacon Hill/Back Bay and Downtown Crossing (and ditto for New York outside of Manhattan) would quickly realize that these cities are far more economically diverse than even current reputation suggests.

Philadelphia has indeed taken more time than other post-industrial cities to diversify itself (and the fruits of diversification have largely been found in the suburbs), but the trajectory of the city in terms of embracing the knowledge economy has never been more clear than today.

In terms of urban design, of course no American city comes close to the extremely ambitious vision and financial resources of New York, but I fail to see a "much more sophisticated" history in Boston versus Philadelphia. The most visionary project I can think of for Boston is the "Big Dig" (which was not exactly a smooth success, given the terrible taste it left in the mouths of many people). Otherwise, it's further along in revitalizing its core -- but, fundamentally, aside from more business success, Philadelphia has adopted the exact same the same urban planning principles as Boston (e.g., close-knit, mixed-use, multi-modal urban neighborhoods underpinned by continuing growth in the knowledge economy).

You just articulated far better than myself what I thought when I read what Cro wrote. Boston has a VERY strong blue collar history that rivals Philadelphia. Boston's current economic success weighs in on early gentrification and its insular nature. Have we forgotten until the 60's San Francisco was a working class industrial Irish-Catholic city?
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  #6270  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis View Post
That model looks very preliminary to me. More like one possibility for massing. Foster + Partners just got announced as the architect and media have identified it as "a tower", so I think all we know is that it will be big and likely be well-designed. 700 beds though is a huge number by contemporary standards in any case.

Maybe GarCastle will stumble across additional insider info in the future ;-)
Here's a link to the world's tallest hospital tower to get a perspective on what's out there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_hospitals_in_the_world

I speculate that it will be at least a 500 footer.
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  #6271  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 8:26 PM
BenKatzPhillytoParis BenKatzPhillytoParis is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
Here's a link to the world's tallest hospital tower to get a perspective on what's out there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_hospitals_in_the_world

I speculate that it will be at least a 500 footer.
Right. A bit earlier today, I used that list for the following analysis:

Some food for thought regarding the possible scale of what shall replace Penn Tower. Of the top 5 tallest hospitals in the world, only 2 (the tallest, built in Hong Kong, and the 3rd tallest, built in Chicago) have been built in the last 15 years (to reflect current standards). The one in HK is 38 stories, 487 feet, and 480 beds. The one in Chicago (the most recent in the list) is 24 stories, 447 feet, and 288 beds. Obviously it's impossible to directly extrapolate from these numbers, but since this project will have 700 beds and 50 operating rooms, it does seem reasonable to infer that it will definitely have some height.
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  #6272  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis View Post
Right. A bit earlier today, I used that list for the following analysis:

Some food for thought regarding the possible scale of what shall replace Penn Tower. Of the top 5 tallest hospitals in the world, only 2 (the tallest, built in Hong Kong, and the 3rd tallest, built in Chicago) have been built in the last 15 years (to reflect current standards). The one in HK is 38 stories, 487 feet, and 480 beds. The one in Chicago (the most recent in the list) is 24 stories, 447 feet, and 288 beds. Obviously it's impossible to directly extrapolate from these numbers, but since this project will have 700 beds and 50 operating rooms, it does seem reasonable to infer that it will definitely have some height.
Thanks. Designing and building a hospital high rise is going to be very different than a commercial office tower. The design will need to take into account the requirements of a hospital including medical gases, emergency power, laboratory, pharmacy, patience and service elevators, above or below grade parking, etc...I believe one of the folks Penn has chosen to be part of the team has this expertise in hospital construction. The height will also depend on the footprint of the tower and its floor plates. It's gonna be very interesting to see the design of this project from Foster and Partners.
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  #6273  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 8:36 PM
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I certainly think the hospital will have *some* height, but I wouldn't get carried away. There will be a lot of people involved (emergency management, insurance, etc) that will see a taller hospital as less than desirable. Particularly in the event of an emergency or catastrophic event where a hospital would be expected to continue to operate as well as possible.

While we all love tall...and I could be proven wrong, I doubt this will far exceed the "norm" for that area.

But, just like most of you, this is speculation!
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  #6274  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 8:52 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis View Post
Right. A bit earlier today, I used that list for the following analysis:

Some food for thought regarding the possible scale of what shall replace Penn Tower. Of the top 5 tallest hospitals in the world, only 2 (the tallest, built in Hong Kong, and the 3rd tallest, built in Chicago) have been built in the last 15 years (to reflect current standards). The one in HK is 38 stories, 487 feet, and 480 beds. The one in Chicago (the most recent in the list) is 24 stories, 447 feet, and 288 beds. Obviously it's impossible to directly extrapolate from these numbers, but since this project will have 700 beds and 50 operating rooms, it does seem reasonable to infer that it will definitely have some height.
I'm now thinking (hoping?) that whatever the height, the hiring of Foster is a sign that Penn wants to make an architectural statement with this new hospital. I don't think it's a coincidence that David Cohen is both Comcast's Executive VP (and one of its big movers and shakers) and the Chair of the Penn Trustees (and former Chair of the Penn Medicine Board of Overseers, or whatever it's called), and that Foster has now been hired by both entities. And with a $1.5 billion price tag, there's quite a statement that can be made. Penn considers itself--and its medical research/clinical program--to be among the best in the world, and I could see it wanting to express that in its new hospital complex. At least, as I said, that's what I'm hoping.

And it might just start to make up for the, um, eclectic nature of the recent architecture we've been seeing from Penn Medicine.
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  #6275  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 9:12 PM
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New York is leagues ahead of Philly but that's not a knock on Philly; it's just recognition that NY is one of the most powerful and richest cities on this planet. There may be 2-3 other comparable cities worldwide. Comparisons to NY are easy as it's nearby but it's not at all fair.

As for Boston, many people overlook the fact that it's also the capital of Massachusetts, which certainly helps its success. It's a nice city but the only thing I'm jealous of is their T and their overall "reputation" that so many people subscribe to. If I have to hear how Philadelphia is a "blue collar town" or a "lunch pail town" one more time, my head will explode. LOL

As for the Penn Hospital, I wonder what $1.5b buys you in the hospital world? Surely, a $1.5b hospital does not = a $1.5b office building, does it?
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  #6276  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 9:24 PM
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I think that's an oversimplification. Just like Philly, New York and Boston have also had historically mixed economies -- with robust blue collar and white collar industries co-existing. It's only today that these cities are essentially synonymous with "bougie" white-collar industries, and it's assumed that's how it's always been. How quickly the "mill town" past for Massachusetts has been forgotten. Similarly for the industrial prowess of New York. Anyone who's even slightly familiar with much of Boston outside of Beacon Hill/Back Bay and Downtown Crossing (and ditto for New York outside of Manhattan) would quickly realize that these cities are far more economically diverse than even current reputation suggests.

Philadelphia has indeed taken more time than other post-industrial cities to diversify itself (and the fruits of diversification have largely been found in the suburbs), but the trajectory of the city in terms of embracing the knowledge economy has never been more clear than today.

In terms of urban design, of course no American city comes close to the extremely ambitious vision and financial resources of New York, but I fail to see a "much more sophisticated" history in Boston versus Philadelphia. The most visionary project I can think of for Boston is the "Big Dig" (which was not exactly a smooth success, given the terrible taste it left in the mouths of many people). Otherwise, it's further along in revitalizing its core -- but, fundamentally, aside from more business success, Philadelphia has adopted the exact same the same urban planning principles as Boston (e.g., close-knit, mixed-use, multi-modal urban neighborhoods underpinned by continuing growth in the knowledge economy).
Not saying that Boston never had a working class element. Of course it did. But it never had one on the scale of Philly.

The city of Boston has always been the professional "brain" of a region with industrial elements further afield: shoes, textiles, port, fishing, etc., in the surrounding towns. But the core of Boston has been largely professional for well over 100 years. I wouldn't trade Philly for the world, but there is nothing in Philadelphia that really compares in scale and building quality with the beaux arts splendor (I know, pretentious sounding) of Backbay, Commonwealth Avenue, Fenway, Brookline, etc.

Boston has, at least since the 1890s, been the east coast's second leading financial district, insurance center, and intellectual/literary center. It remains the leading academic city nationally. It has always been an important political center.

Philadelphia was the workshop of the world and Boston could never make that claim. There are no blue collar neighborhoods in or around Boston that come remotely close to the scale of North, South, West Philly or the River Wards, or Camden. Or even the Great Northeast.

Those industrial neighborhoods hug right up against Center City on every side, and Boston has little like that. The west side of central Boston essentially morphs right into Mainline-like suburbs with virtually no transitional inner city neighborhoods.

Philly is definitely bigger, grittier, more industrial. Boston is more delicate and refined . . . and haughty.

Last edited by Cro Burnham; Jan 20, 2015 at 9:40 PM.
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  #6277  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 9:27 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is offline
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As for the Penn Hospital, I wonder what $1.5b buys you in the hospital world? Surely, a $1.5b hospital does not = a $1.5b office building, does it?
Surely not. But with Foster on-board, there seems to be an intent to build something that's not just utilitarian. On the other hand, they did start the Perelman Center for Advanced Medicine with Rafael Vinoly as the starchitect (not that he's necessarily comparable to Foster), and look how that's ended up.
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  #6278  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 9:43 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
Boston has, at least since the 1890s, been the east coast's second leading financial district, insurance center, and literary center.
I'm not so sure about that. Philly had the stock exchange and some leading investment firms, major insurance company headquarters, national advertising agencies (e.g., N.W. Ayer & Son), major publishing companies (e.g., Curtis and Lippincott), and national law firms (and the American Law Institute) based here for much of the 20th Century. At least as much national impact in those areas as Boston, if not more. In fact, except in education, it's arguable that Philly was much more of a national center during much of the 20th Century, while Boston was more of a regional center.

Last edited by Philly Fan; Jan 20, 2015 at 9:58 PM.
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  #6279  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 9:45 PM
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As for Boston, many people overlook the fact that it's also the capital of Massachusetts, which certainly helps its success. It's a nice city but the only thing I'm jealous of is their T and their overall "reputation" that so many people subscribe to. If I have to hear how Philadelphia is a "blue collar town" or a "lunch pail town" one more time, my head will explode. LOL
This is so key, in my opinion. Harrisburg can hate Philadelphia from afar, but lawmakers in Massachusetts are intimately involved with the reality of Boston every single day.
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  #6280  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2015, 10:18 PM
UrbanRevival UrbanRevival is offline
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
Not saying that Boston never had a working class element. Of course it did. But it never had one on the scale of Philly.

The city of Boston has always been the professional "brain" of a region with industrial elements further afield: shoes, textiles, port, fishing, etc., in the surrounding towns. But the core of Boston has been largely professional for well over 100 years. I wouldn't trade Philly for the world, but there is nothing in Philadelphia that really compares in scale and building quality with the beaux arts splendor (I know, pretentious sounding) of Backbay, Commonwealth Avenue, Fenway, Brookline, etc.

Boston has, at least since the 1890s, been the east coast's second leading financial district, insurance center, and intellectual/literary center. It remains the leading academic city nationally. It has always been an important political center.

Philadelphia was the workshop of the world and Boston could never make that claim. There are no blue collar neighborhoods in or around Boston that come remotely close to the scale of North, South, West Philly or the River Wards, or Camden. Or even the Great Northeast.

Those industrial neighborhoods hug right up against Center City on every side, and Boston has little like that. The west side of central Boston essentially morphs right into Mainline-like suburbs with virtually no transitional inner city neighborhoods.

Philly is definitely bigger, grittier, more industrial. Boston is more delicate and refined . . . and haughty.
There are no doubt some fundamental differences in terms of both cities' historic economic structure, and much of that is because of the fact that Philadelphia incorporated more of its surrounding "industrial suburbs," as opposed to Boston, which remained independent from surrounding industrial cities like Chelsea, Quincy, and Somerville. Boston has historically working-class neighborhoods, too, such as Dorchester, Jamaica Plain and South Boston--all of which have blue collar roots, even if they were not manufacturing hubs themselves.

I also recognize Boston's historic edge in the areas of finance, medicine and higher education, but again, I see parallels with Philadelphia's historic role in these areas, which often get downplayed (e.g., First Stock Exchange, Pennsylvania Hospital, and various historic and colleges/universities).

In terms of legacy architecture, I'd concede that Philly does not have a wide, "grand" residential boulevard in the same vein as some the Back Bay, but as you know, Philly is still a treasure trove of wonderful historic architecture (just organized more intimately). I think the many varieties of bricks rows in Philly outweigh the many wood-framed triple-deckers in the rest of Boston, though, IMHO.

Overall, I think comparisons between other cities can be instructive, but in this day and age, there's no inherent disadvantage holding Philadelphia back.

Last edited by UrbanRevival; Jan 20, 2015 at 10:37 PM.
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