Phoenix Development News (3)

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

So many of the larger restaurants downtown went out of business at the same time - Nick's 101, Sonoma, Matador - and their spaces just haven't been filled since, leaving huge gaps. Part of it, I'm sure, is that CityScape 'owns' the restaurant segment right now and is too far away from the rest of the core for any of the vacant retail to use that energy to its advantage. Downtown lacks that more casual kind of dining right now... it's either hipster, more brewpub-type establishments, or super trendy/chic Sam Fox restaurants (excluding fast food here).

I wish Phoenix had put as much energy into Adams Street as they did with ASU for Taylor. I keep thinking it would be awesome if they used the Terminal 4 strategy for that area - clustering as many of the most popular AZ restaurants and bars into this one area to give conventioneers a completely local experience. Imagine Four Peaks & Blanco in the Regency Garage, Churn in the historic white building at Renaissance Square, Chelsea's Kitchen & Postino & Lolo's in the new Hilton Garden Inn.

At the very least, the City could've upgraded the built environment of the immediate area to support future growth; i.e. streetscaping, shade structures, public art, working with the Hyatt and Renaissance to built retail along their dead faces, built the CC retail to be able to handle restaurants so more active uses than UPS could have surfaced there...

Burger Joint Chicago was in the Nick's 101 space for about 6 months, closing in December.

[nickw252]

I just noticed this week a project at about 12th and Washington. Is that the "The Blue" project? It's up to 2 floors and looks like residential.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by nickw252

I just noticed this week a project at about 12th and Washington. Is that the "The Blue" project? It's up to 2 floors and looks like residential.

No. The Blue project was sold... instead of ~12 story mixed use apartments, the new owner is building 4-story single-use apartments called 11 and 12 Capital Place.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/...veloper-gearing-up-for-new-downtown.html

[Jjs5056]

Anyone know anything about this project? Moreland Commons at 2nd Street and Moreland.

https://www.phoenix.gov/cityclerksite/PublicMeetings/150120003.pdf

I hope the project is fairly dense; it's needed to activate that side of Deck Park.The last proposed project for this lot (in December 2012) called for 240 apartments with live/work space. That'd be perfect for the area.ETA: Scratch that; I guess it's for 49 condos. That'll add a lot of activation to the park and retail forming along 1st Street...... though, I can't imagine them selling on that site so hopefully it falls through. Definitely a "nothing is better than this" situation.

In slightly less depressing news, a new restaurant called The Counter looks to be opening up in the old Baja Fresh historic building on Central/Adams soon.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/...gers-setting-up-in-downtown-phoenix.html

[PHX31]

Is anyone going to the HP meeting this afternoon at 3 in reference to the threatened greenhaus building/murals and the other two houses and canvas (I believe they'll be included)?

I really want the developers coming in and building on some of these unsightly empty lots, I just wish it didn't have to be an either/or situation (developer coming in and razing everything, or not coming in at all). They should know the reason the area is so popular is because of the existing places remaining that are unique. And that popularity is what is handing them the opportunity to come in and develop and make money. Tear it down or take some of it away and they're screwing everyone, including themselves.

Wish they could just incorporate the buildings (greenhaus at least) into their plan, and then the other development, I wish they could save those houses by incorporation, or moving them.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1524244081173240/?ref_newsfeed_story_type=regular

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Is anyone going to the HP meeting this afternoon at 3 in reference to the threatened greenhaus building/murals and the other two houses and canvas (I believe they'll be included)?

I really want the developers coming in and building on some of these unsightly empty lots, I just wish it didn't have to be an either/or situation (developer coming in and razing everything, or not coming in at all). They should know the reason the area is so popular is because of the existing places remaining that are unique. And that popularity is what is handing them the opportunity to come in and develop and make money. Tear it down or take some of it away and they're screwing everyone, including themselves.

Wish they could just incorporate the buildings (greenhaus at least) into their plan, and then the other development, I wish they could save those houses by incorporation, or moving them.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1524244081173240/?ref_newsfeed_story_type=regular

Assuming no Friday afternoon emergencies at work, I'll be there. My opinion is that we shouldn't be adding more ground floor retail given the vacant space at Roosevelt Point, Skyline Lofts, and Tapestry. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean we should tear down structures already in existence. It's those quirky vintage buildings that seem to succeed in drawing retail tenants when ground floor space in newly constructed buildings remains empty.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Assuming no Friday afternoon emergencies at work, I'll be there. My opinion is that we shouldn't be adding more ground floor retail given the vacant space at Roosevelt Point, Skyline Lofts, and Tapestry. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean we should tear down structures already in existence. It's those quirky vintage buildings that seem to succeed in drawing retail tenants when ground floor space in newly constructed buildings remains empty.

Skyline Lofts has a decent vacancy rate given that they are surrounding by parking and dirt lots; and, that should go up once 4th/McKinley brings more foot traffic to the area. Meanwhile, there has been interest in the spaces at Roosevelt Point, but the leasing agent has either set astronomical prices or presented other stumbling blocks. Tapestry's issues have been documented for years, but regardless, the economics of midtown retail shouldn't impact development on Roosevelt Row.

I know you think I promote retail in all situations, but I don't. For example, the neighborhood between VB and Fillmore, 2nd ave and 7th ave, that is mainly vacant lots, would be fine with dense, urban, residential with no ground level uses.

But, there are certain areas where retail is absolutely essential, and Roosevelt Row is one of them. For starters, it is one of the only walkable districts within downtown because of its eclectic mix of retail in densely concentrated street-fronting spaces. A large streetscape project is underway to improve walkability and increase sidewalks to promote strolling and window shopping. The area loses its attractiveness if there are huge gaps in the urban fabric created by one-use structures. Meanwhile, as residential density builds in the areas to the north and south, the need for retail is even more crucial. The built environment should be built to respond to the needs of these new residents by providing spaces for the services that will be in demand. Lastly, new retail spaces would help drive down the prices of other new spaces such as the ones at Roosevelt Point that are inflated because they are one of the only new construction projects in the area.

A one-use residential zone from 5th street to 2nd street will destroy the walkable, urban district Roosevelt has become, and will prevent it from evolving into a neighborhood center as new residential projects are built. We complain all the time that there is no main street in downtown, or dense commercial zone... Roosevelt Row is the closest we come to that. Why do you want to make permanent decisions now based on factors that are flexible (demand can increase, rates can adjust; these buildings are permanent within our lifetime)?

Smart decisions need to be made in order to keep retail accessible to small businesses, as that is the primary market in Roosevelt. Those decisions include preserving older structures that can charge lower rent - thus, the need to integrate/preserve GreenHAUS and the Bodega 420 house - or forcing developers.the City to make choices now in the design process that will allow them to charge reasonable rates. Somehow, Skyline has been able to lease space and also include space for a gallery. I don't see why new projects can't do the same. At the very least, each should include one retail space for every one that they demolish.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Skyline Lofts has a decent vacancy rate given that they are surrounding by parking and dirt lots; and, that should go up once 4th/McKinley brings more foot traffic to the area... Somehow, Skyline has been able to lease space and also include space for a gallery. I don't see why new projects can't do the same. At the very least, each should include one retail space for every one that they demolish.

I work across the street from Skyline and ride my bike past the building every day. I don't see any signs of ground floor occupancy.

More generally, people keep saying that the ground floor retail space in Tapestry and Roosevelt Point is vacant because of poor design and/or excessive rents. That may be true, but until we can discover what combination of design and price does attract tenants (and somehow write that into zoning), maybe we should hold off on adding more.

The only retail space that does seem to work well is vintage buildings, which is why I'd like to see some of these new apartment complexes forego their own ground floor retail spots in favor of wrapping around existing structures that have better occupancy rates.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Is anyone going to the HP meeting this afternoon at 3 in reference to the threatened greenhaus building/murals and the other two houses and canvas (I believe they'll be included)?

I really want the developers coming in and building on some of these unsightly empty lots, I just wish it didn't have to be an either/or situation (developer coming in and razing everything, or not coming in at all). They should know the reason the area is so popular is because of the existing places remaining that are unique. And that popularity is what is handing them the opportunity to come in and develop and make money. Tear it down or take some of it away and they're screwing everyone, including themselves.

Wish they could just incorporate the buildings (greenhaus at least) into their plan, and then the other development, I wish they could save those houses by incorporation, or moving them.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1524244081173240/?ref_newsfeed_story_type=regular

I'll be there. There's no reason all of those buildings cant be saved and repurposed into these new projects. We just have lazy, uncreative developers here who only know how to deal with blank lots.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I work across the street from Skyline and ride my bike past the building every day. I don't see any signs of ground floor occupancy.

More generally, people keep saying that the ground floor retail space in Tapestry and Roosevelt Point is vacant because of poor design and/or excessive rents. That may be true, but until we can discover what combination of design and price does attract tenants (and somehow write that into zoning), maybe we should hold off on adding more.

The only retail space that does seem to work well is vintage buildings, which is why I'd like to see some of these new apartment complexes forego their own ground floor retail spots in favor of wrapping around existing structures that have better occupancy rates.

As of the spring, there was a chiropractor, tattoo parlor, Chinese medicinal herb shop, and a boutique in Skyline. They've all closed? The only vacant spots at that time were the two that front Fillmore.

Roosevelt Point gets to charge high rates because its the only building with brand new retail space on the market along Roosevelt Row. How does that change? Through competition. It will always be the highest-priced on the block if no new inventory ever comes to market.

As for preserving the existing spaces that actually rent, the only two that can possibly be saved are GreenHAUS and Bodega 420; there's no way that Canvas can be incorporated into a viable apartment project. That's a loss of 4 (?) potential restaurant spots, which are ideal for the sidewalks being created. The infrastructure of the block is being made with the intent of it being a shopping street. It's going to look absolutely ridiculous and dead and blighted if Roosevelt is dominated by one-use buildings.

The reasons against adding retail are all temporary... creating dead zones, as proven time and time again throughout downtown, is forever. There's really no 'Row' in Roosevelt Row when it's a street with retail at one end (7th-5th Streets), and then again between two blocks (2nd-1st Streets), and that's it. Residential-only belongs on Portland and Moreland.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

I'll be there. There's no reason all of those buildings cant be saved and repurposed into these new projects. We just have lazy, uncreative developers here who only know how to deal with blank lots.

Cool. Hopefully you get to speak or make your stance known.

However, I think the ultimate basis of all of their decisions is money. Which is well within their rights, as that's their living. Being lazy and uncreative on how they can still make their money while incorporating the historic pieces may be true, but the bottom line is all about money.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Cool. Hopefully you get to speak or make your stance known.

However, I think the ultimate basis of all of their decisions is money. Which is well within their rights, as that's their living. Being lazy and uncreative on how they can still make their money while incorporating the historic pieces may be true, but the bottom line is all about money.

Which is the exact reason Phoenix has such a terrible built environment. Instead of local architects coming in and building projects that respect the site and its surrounding community, giant development companies like Wood Partners come and try to place a generic templated design in the cheapest locations. And, when that template doesn't quite fit, the answer is demolition. That's why every block seems like its own city instead of speaking to each other and connecting the dots to form something organic and greater than just the sum of its parts.

And, not every business is in it for the bottom line. I work in advertising, and we don't hire the cheapest talent, or use lesser-quality materials... we don't put campaigns on auto-pilot. We continue to push the boundaries and be innovative and creative, which is risky, yes. But, that's how you end up with something great that transcends just being an ad... and, as an industry that employs a similarly creative class that should value those same ideals, it isn't that unreasonable to expect better for the 6th largest city in the country.

Phoenix deserves more than a small-minded, paint by numbers approach to its one and only downtown node that has received credit for being something resembling a truly urban space.

[PHX31]

How was the meeting? Anyone?

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by PHX31

How was the meeting? Anyone?

The commission heard from city staff, then went into executive session to meet with an attorney, and then came back to hear from the property owners and advocates of the historic preservation overlay. Lawyers for the property owners requested more time, and city staff also indicated they needed more time to research some of the properties. As a result, no vote was taken today on the overlay; this was just the beginning of a process.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

As of the spring, there was a chiropractor, tattoo parlor, Chinese medicinal herb shop, and a boutique in Skyline. They've all closed? The only vacant spots at that time were the two that front Fillmore.

I spoke to a resident of Skyline who told me that the live-work spaces along Pierce are occupied. I don't see those much since I usually view Skyline from either Fillmore or 4th Street. Since the live-work spaces seem to be all that's working, maybe that's what the city should encourage. Almost anything's better than rows of empty storefronts.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I spoke to a resident of Skyline who told me that the live-work spaces along Pierce are occupied. I don't see those much since I usually view Skyline from either Fillmore or 4th Street. Since the live-work spaces seem to be all that's working, maybe that's what the city should encourage. Almost anything's better than rows of empty storefronts.

I didn't realize those were live/work. It's not surprising that the ones facing AZ Center are vacant -- they face a ton of parking and AZ Center's back-end. I really wish the AZ Center's new owner had invested more into the redevelopment than just cosmetics; just building up the parking lot with apartments over ~3 retail spaces and then creating an actual pedestrian entrance from the northeast would make that area so much more walkable and Skyline could build off the energy from people going to AZ Center.

There aren't enough live/work spaces downtown, IMO. They're perfect for the Roosevelt area... usually smaller spaces (less money) that cater to a creative type of business. The ones at Artisan Village are almost all occupied, as well. The 4th/McKinley project is including them which will give that part of town more of a neighborhood feel... until/if the Biomedical Campus reaches its build out on the surrounding properties.

I think it's good when live/work are mixed with 1-2 retail spots. You get the small, boutique-type businesses (or professional services) with the possibility of attracting a business with bigger needs like a restaurant. In an ideal world, the plan for Alta Roosevelt would shrink on the south and west to save the Bodega 420 house and the other historic home, and then add ~4 live/work units between them to create a nice row of potential galleries and cafes, etc. The rest of the units lost could be made up by wrapping the garage or putting parking below.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

I think it's good when live/work are mixed with 1-2 retail spots. You get the small, boutique-type businesses (or professional services) with the possibility of attracting a business with bigger needs like a restaurant. In an ideal world, the plan for Alta Roosevelt would shrink on the south and west to save the Bodega 420 house and the other historic home, and then add ~4 live/work units between them to create a nice row of potential galleries and cafes, etc. The rest of the units lost could be made up by wrapping the garage or putting parking below.

South and east, I think, but otherwise I completely agree with this idea.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

South and east, I think, but otherwise I completely agree with this idea.

Yes, sorry.

And, a developer in most major cities would be coming up with a solution like this to begin with; there are several *high rise* projects in Canada that build around/integrate historic homes... yet, in Phoenix, developers just wipe the slate clean. I could almost understand it if they built an underground garage and packed hyper-dense, affordable units with ground level uses onto the lot. But, they aren't. The parking garage and unnecessary courtyards take up real estate that could be appropriated toward a comprise.

On the subject of live/work space, two things:
1) Did you ask Skyline if there's potential to convert the Fillmore side to live/work given how popular that choice seems to be for their tenants? If not, they should definitely look into it. Those 2 spots have been vacant for, what, 7 years?
2) Is it me or is signage absolutely TERRIBLE for live/work businesses? The fact that you had no idea that businesses even existed on Pierce despite working nearby shows how badly they are at marketing themselves. Even the Artisan Village units - I would have no idea what was in each unless stopped or walking.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

On the subject of live/work space, two things:
1) Did you ask Skyline if there's potential to convert the Fillmore side to live/work given how popular that choice seems to be for their tenants? If not, they should definitely look into it. Those 2 spots have been vacant for, what, 7 years?
2) Is it me or is signage absolutely TERRIBLE for live/work businesses? The fact that you had no idea that businesses even existed on Pierce despite working nearby shows how badly they are at marketing themselves. Even the Artisan Village units - I would have no idea what was in each unless stopped or walking.

I spoke to a resident but not an employee of the complex, so I didn't ask about what might be possible -- only the present state of affairs.

I don't know much about live-work. Maybe they're subject to zoning that forbids big signs. In my view, the ideal businesses to run out of live-work spaces would be ones that don't rely on lots of spontaneous business from people passing by. Examples might be service providers such as massage therapists who find business mostly through referrals.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I spoke to a resident but not an employee of the complex, so I didn't ask about what might be possible -- only the present state of affairs.

I don't know much about live-work. Maybe they're subject to zoning that forbids big signs. In my view, the ideal businesses to run out of live-work spaces would be ones that don't rely on lots of spontaneous business from people passing by. Examples might be service providers such as massage therapists who find business mostly through referrals.

I think that depends entirely on the location of the live/work units. In most cities, they're used in arts districts to provide affordable gallery spaces, for example. That's true of Artisan Village on Roosevelt, where I think there is a great mix of businesses from boutiques to bakeries to service providers. That's the sort of mix seen at Skyline, as well, even though it's more of an interior neighborhood development, so I imagine 4th/McKinley will be similar. I think given the overinflated price of new retail spaces in the market, lack of live/work spaces in downtown and demand for that kind of lifestyle, we'll continue to see a wide range of businesses which I think is healthy for that northern edge of downtown.