Calgary Economy

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Opened the door to sales tax today.

He's destroyed his right wing opposition, so he might actually try and do it.

I'd be in favour of a moderate change to income tax to make it a progressive rate, and a sales tax of say 3%. I understand this would close the fiscal gap.

I'd also suggest that they should replace all municipal capital grant programs by simply ceding the provincial portion of the property tax to Calgary and Edmonton. Smaller municipalities would still have some sort of gas tax transfer and MSI program. That, or give us a point on the income tax or sales tax for a block transfer.

There is a little thing called the Taxpayer Protection Act. Makes it hard to do without going to the people.

Progressive income tax it is all about your brackets. If you go into the $70k a year zone you can net some serious revenue. Later tonight or tomorrow I'll attempt to find a crude bracket revenue calculator that I built on 2011 data on the Google Spreadsheet thingy.

Important to have the entire public sector on side on this. Might mean dragging the cities kicking and screaming along with the agencies boards and commissions on wages. Or you could end up with some incongruities that really hurts public opinion.

[Spring2008]

So the distribution centres are moving here en masse, any chance CED's able to attract a bunch of new head offices here again? Now would be a good time.

Cabela's moves distribution centre from Winnipeg to Calgary

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/manitoba...entre-from-winnipeg-to-calgary-1.2897866

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

So what do you cut?

The ideology that Albertans - particularly high income Albertans - are magically entitled to the lowest personal, corporate, sales, and property tax rates in the country?

[Design-mind]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Opened the door to sales tax today.

He's destroyed his right wing opposition, so he might actually try and do it.

I'd be in favour of a moderate change to income tax to make it a progressive rate, and a sales tax of say 3%. I understand this would close the fiscal gap.

I'd also suggest that they should replace all municipal capital grant programs by simply ceding the provincial portion of the property tax to Calgary and Edmonton. Smaller municipalities would still have some sort of gas tax transfer and MSI program. That, or give us a point on the income tax or sales tax for a block transfer.

I think that Alberta could use a provincial land transfer tax, and that could be divided into the municipalities instead of raising civic property taxes. Similar to what they have in Vancouver. This makes Vancouver millions per year.

[Ramsayfarian]

I think they should bring back health care premiums.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

I think they should bring back health care premiums.

In some ways I agree, in others I think it wasn't really a fair "tax". Most big companies ended up paying for it, so people who could afford it had it covered while people who struggled a bit more had to pay. I remember some sort of income cut-off I think, but above that it seamed like more of a tax on people who could have a job, but not work at a company that could afford to cover it. When it was cancelled, it almost seamed like tax relief for big companies. So I'm not really sure where I stand on it!

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by Spring2008

I'll take an increase in gas taxes for starters. Wouldn't mind seeing a 1 or 2% PST earmarked for big transit infrastructure either.

Increased gasoline tax seems like a easy to implement tax with relatively low political downside. Won't close the whole gap but would make a dent. Like all other taxes in Alberta, ours is substantially out of whack.

This is from 2013, per litre of gasoline:



Moving from 9 cents a litre to 20 - 25 cent a litre (including a provincial sales tax portion) restores that balance.

Would love to see dedicated tax for infrastructure as a slice of that, like Vancouver's transit tax.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

The ideology that Albertans - particularly high income Albertans - are magically entitled to the lowest personal, corporate, sales, and property tax rates in the country?

If you are super aggressive you might net a billion dollars. Again all depends on what you define high income as.

What about the next 9?

[*Stardust*]

Gas Tax would be a fantastic idea. I would be okay with paying that even if the economy wasn't bad. Could help fund a lot of infrastructure projects.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by MasterG

Increased gasoline tax seems like a easy to implement tax with relatively low political downside. Won't close the whole gap but would make a dent. Like all other taxes in Alberta, ours is substantially out of whack.

This is from 2013, per litre of gasoline:



Moving from 9 cents a litre to 20 - 25 cent a litre (including a provincial sales tax portion) restores that balance.

Would love to see dedicated tax for infrastructure as a slice of that, like Vancouver's transit tax.

We already have a dedicated slice for infrastructure, but I get your point.

So everyone is operating off of the same base:
tax by Odarwin1, on Flickr

Doesn't account for behavioral responses to tax changes.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by *Stardust*

Gas Tax would be a fantastic idea. I would be okay with paying that even if the economy wasn't bad. Could help fund a lot of infrastructure projects.

Particularly where everyone is completely used to paying $1.20 / litre anyways. Doesn't hurt to have every other jurisdiction in Canada as an example to point to as being much higher than Alberta (although its not like that fact triggered tax reform before). I wonder how much it would net? a few hundred million annually?

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

There is a little thing called the Taxpayer Protection Act. Makes it hard to do without going to the people.

Progressive income tax it is all about your brackets. If you go into the $70k a year zone you can net some serious revenue. Later tonight or tomorrow I'll attempt to find a crude bracket revenue calculator that I built on 2011 data on the Google Spreadsheet thingy.

Important to have the entire public sector on side on this. Might mean dragging the cities kicking and screaming along with the agencies boards and commissions on wages. Or you could end up with some incongruities that really hurts public opinion.

Interesting wording in that act, the results have to be announced before introduction but there is no mention that they have to be in support. Seems we have an election coming this year, may be the time to put this to the people. Hell then in a year they can introduce one.

[MasterG]

Thanks MalcolmTucker, that is great detail for this discussion.

[simster3]

I think it needs to be an overall mix of taxes and spending cuts. This is what I would attempt to do and I do not know enough it it would be viable. Feel free to pick it apart.

-Remove O&G revenues from general budget
50% goes to Heritage Fund, other 50% goes to capital projects
-Roll back wages across the board 5% and to be good sports, 10% for the MLAs, it would hurt but at least they feel the pain too
-Bring back the Healthcare Premium, with a higher low-income threshold, so the people who really can't afford it do not need to pay, I am thinking 40k
-Add progressive taxation, increase personal exemption to 25k
-Add Sales Tax of 3%, with an additional 2% divided to Calgary and Edmonton, dedicated to infrastructure
-I don't know enough about corporate taxes to fiddle with them but I am sure it could be made a bit more progressive as well.

I have no idea what kind of revenue these measures would bring in but I think it would be better for Alberta to become more independent from O&G revenues.

[Full Mountain]

My solutions:
- Gas Tax - Revenue split by end user (transit, private auto, goods transportation) this would allow for direct funding of projects from dedicated buckets for the end users
- Progressive Income Tax - For simplicity sake, we could use the federal income splits, though the cost of living may require this to be revised. I would propose an 8%/10%/12% split, this means low income gets a cut and higher income picks up the slack and likely still increases general revenue
- Health Care Premiums - Only for the top tax bracket, this is the people that are paying for care anyway, at least if they are paying into the public system the rest of the population benefits
- HST - Add 1-2% to the GST, let the federal government manage it

[para transit fellow]

I'm not in favour of bring ing back health care premiums.
High income earners got their employer to pay the premium. Lower income earners usually have to pay it themselves.

Perhaps I am biased as I (with one exception) had to pay AHCP myself

If we are going to bring back health care premium maybe use the Ontario model where it is an employer tax (i.e. employers cover premium for their staff).

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by simster3

I think it needs to be an overall mix of taxes and spending cuts. This is what I would attempt to do and I do not know enough it it would be viable. Feel free to pick it apart.

-Remove O&G revenues from general budget
50% goes to Heritage Fund, other 50% goes to capital projects
-Roll back wages across the board 5% and to be good sports, 10% for the MLAs, it would hurt but at least they feel the pain too
-Bring back the Healthcare Premium, with a higher low-income threshold, so the people who really can't afford it do not need to pay, I am thinking 40k
-Add progressive taxation, increase personal exemption to 25k
-Add Sales Tax of 3%, with an additional 2% divided to Calgary and Edmonton, dedicated to infrastructure
-I don't know enough about corporate taxes to fiddle with them but I am sure it could be made a bit more progressive as well.

I have no idea what kind of revenue these measures would bring in but I think it would be better for Alberta to become more independent from O&G revenues.

If we go to progressive taxes and health care premiums for the upper bracket(s) we need to have a very serious look at what it costs to live a basic life in our province. I would argue that a household income above 70-80k a year is required to live comfortably in a major center, people at or below that shouldn't bear the brunt of the new income sources, the ones above that should bear the primary burden as they are the best able to handle it.

One could also put forward a tax benefit for lower income people regarding gas taxes if they require a vehicle to get to work or for work.

Disclaimer: I would be directly affected by any taxes to the upper brackets, so I am proposing things that I would gladly pay. I fully recognize that I need to pay my share of the costs of the services which I want and I think I get a spectacular ride as it is right now.

[MalcolmTucker]

We already have a dedicated slice for infrastructure, but I get your point.

So everyone is operating off of the same base:
tax by Odarwin1, on Flickr

Doesn't account for behavioral responses to tax changes.

Basic threshold calculator:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...LiYYNTIKB_pK6OIe-pF_XD0/edit?usp=sharing

I think that should enable you to download and try your own brackets.

Warning: the sheet is based on old data (I think 2011 or 2010), so the PIT numbers are not directly comparable to this budget year.
But it will give you an idea of why it is hard to make more money from PIT.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

I'm not in favour of bring ing back health care premiums.
High income earners got their employer to pay the premium. Lower income earners usually have to pay it themselves.

Perhaps I am biased as I (with one exception) had to pay AHCP myself

If we are going to bring back health care premium maybe use the Ontario model where it is an employer tax (i.e. employers cover premium for their staff).

I think you either do that or only make it applicable to the top tax bracket.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Brackets, remember that higher income people also pay taxes in the lower brackets, so to net out higher revenues, the cut in rate for the lowest bracket needs to be made up. An 8/10/12 system would require the 12 threshold to be pretty low to make up for the lost revenue from all taxpayers of the 8% bracket, or you would have to reduce the exemption.

Right, might have to go to 8/10/14/18.

What is the basic exemption adjusted based on currently?