Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Millennium2002]

If I recall correctly, all the major BC unions have an informal "hold the line" solidarity policy with each other...

With that in mind, I wonder how a Canada Line strike shutdown would affect TransLink operations in Vancouver and Richmond...

Would it just stop drivers from offering replacement bus service on the affected corridor, or would it extend to station exchanges and/or parallel alternate corridors?

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by st7860

Thats way too high for something that doesn't require a higher education

You list out a bunch of reasons, but you neglect to list any numbers to support your case. Care to justify with concrete proof that this job is overpaid?

I think we should be comparing this for what it really is: a full-time first-responder and customer service job that requires extra skills and abilities on top of a high school education...

[Metro-One]

It amazes me how often people seem to want to race to the bottom.

I think there should be many more jobs that DONT require post secondary education that pay within 20 to 30 dollars an hour, not less.

We have placed far to much focus on post-secondary education recently in our culture, and it is starting to create a snobby elitist attitude (ironically often from those with very useless bogus degrees).

We need to return to offering more jobs where people receive in depth on site paid training / apprenticeships instead of going into massive debt for largely fluff degrees.

So instead of saying bogus stuff such as "no one without post secondary should be paid that much, etc..." how about, "university graduates / engineers, etc... should be paid MORE for their work, and lets stop undercutting each other."

[st7860]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

It amazes me how often people seem to want to race to the bottom.

I think there should be many more jobs that DONT require post secondary education that pay within 20 to 30 dollars an hour, not less.

We have placed far to much focus on post-secondary education recently in our culture, and it is starting to create a snobby elitist attitude (ironically often from those with very useless bogus degrees).

We need to return to offering more jobs where people receive in depth on site paid training / apprenticeships instead of going into massive debt for largely fluff degrees.

So instead of saying bogus stuff such as "no one without post secondary should be paid that much, etc..." how about, "university graduates / engineers, etc... should be paid MORE for their work, and lets stop undercutting each other."

University graduates already get enough. So you think a Canada Line receptionist at $23 an hour is not enough then a $40 per hour nurse with a university education should get $50 an hour instead? The base wage at Ikea Richmond should be $20 an hour? A taxi driver without a university education should be able to support a $1,200,000 mortgage to buy a licence instead of just $800,000(the cost of a Vancouver licence) Get paid to be sick? Ok, sounds reasonable. But get your vacation extended if you get sick? Never need to work overtime even when the employer is not asking you to work an unsafe number of hours? umm...

At least the bus drivers were intelligent enough to sign a contract that places the next negotiations _after_ the transit referendum this spring.

With regards to the Protrans contract, I thought about that too. #1. If things like that contract were public, people would be more willing to vote yes in the transit referendum #2. Its hard to believe that Protrans would agree to a contract that puts them on the hook for huge wage increases unless they are already making excessive profits from Translink.

[Axe]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

It amazes me how often people seem to want to race to the bottom.

I think there should be many more jobs that DONT require post secondary education that pay within 20 to 30 dollars an hour, not less.

We have placed far to much focus on post-secondary education recently in our culture, and it is starting to create a snobby elitist attitude (ironically often from those with very useless bogus degrees).

We need to return to offering more jobs where people receive in depth on site paid training / apprenticeships instead of going into massive debt for largely fluff degrees.

So instead of saying bogus stuff such as "no one without post secondary should be paid that much, etc..." how about, "university graduates / engineers, etc... should be paid MORE for their work, and lets stop undercutting each other."

[WarrenC12]

The details of the negotiation are what is important. If anybody bothered to RTFA:

Their previous collective agreement expired more than a year ago at the end of December 2013.

So obviously they haven't been able to come to a new agreement. Without any knowledge of the respective sides, people here are lining up to bash the workers, and defend them.

Maybe ProTrans wants 0% increases for 5 years, is that fair?

Maybe the union wants 10% increases for 5 years, is that fair?

Without any knowledge of what the true issue is, anybody taking a hard stand here looks silly.

I think $25/hr is reasonable for standing out in the cold a lot, and dealing with the general public, full of idiots and 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. You'd have to pay me at least that much to do that job.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think $25/hr is reasonable for standing out in the cold a lot, and dealing with the general public, full of idiots and 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. You'd have to pay me at least that much to do that job.

Coarse language. Viewer discretion may be advised.

$25 an hour for working outdoors. That sounds a bit over the top. Lots of people work outside and don't get $25 an hour.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by st7860

University graduates already get enough. So you think a Canada Line receptionist at $23 an hour is not enough then a $40 per hour nurse with a university education should get $50 an hour instead? The base wage at Ikea Richmond should be $20 an hour? A taxi driver without a university education should be able to support a $1,200,000 mortgage to buy a licence instead of just $800,000(the cost of a Vancouver licence) Get paid to be sick? Ok, sounds reasonable. But get your vacation extended if you get sick? Never need to work overtime even when the employer is not asking you to work an unsafe number of hours? umm...

At least the bus drivers were intelligent enough to sign a contract that places the next negotiations _after_ the transit referendum this spring.

With regards to the Protrans contract, I thought about that too. #1. If things like that contract were public, people would be more willing to vote yes in the transit referendum #2. Its hard to believe that Protrans would agree to a contract that puts them on the hook for huge wage increases unless they are already making excessive profits from Translink.

Wow..... I see it is not even worth my time to respond to you, because you are so far off base, there is no point in even trying, but thanks for the comic relief!

These threads need it sometimes.

BTW I am university educated with 2 degrees, and I fail to see the problem of non university educated employees being able to earn decent living wages that can actually support a family. It makes for a very healthy middle class and a strong society

[quobobo]

Originally Posted by Meraki

Yeah, and everybody in tech laughs at people who stick around because it's a city with Silicon Valley cost of living without the wages to match.

This is outdated. Amazon and other companies have really driven up the salaries for good developers in the last few years. Housing is also quite a bit cheaper here than in the Bay Area.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

BTW I am university educated with 2 degrees, and I fail to see the problem of non university educated employees being able to earn decent living wages that can actually support a family. It makes for a very healthy middle class and a strong society

I largely agree with you, Metro. Offering such a job at $10.25 an hour (or whatever the minimum wage is in BC) cannot support, for example a monoparental family. Point blank. Even for a single person .... in Vancouver??? Ha! Forget it.

People who have spent years in university, have large student loan debts, to become pharmacologists and such deserve higher, I really think, but in this case I agree with you.

I guess the argument willcome from some people "yes but where will they
get the funding to pay for those higher wages?" but that opens up another can of worms, like the cost being pased on to the consumer, etc etc.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I largely agree with you, Metro. Offering such a job at $10.25 an hour (or whatever the minimum wage is in BC) cannot support, for example a monoparental family. Point blank. Even for a single person .... in Vancouver??? Ha! Forget it.

Lower income families get free medical, rental subsidies for whichever apartment they chose to live in, monthly checks to help support their children, free community centre access(in Vancouver) and lots of other interesting benefits

[st7860]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

BTW I am university educated with 2 degrees, and I fail to see the problem of non university educated employees being able to earn decent living wages that can actually support a family. It makes for a very healthy middle class and a strong society

$20 to $25 is really high for a job that does not require an education.

[DKaz]

I took on $26k in student loan debt and it took me 10 years in the industry to get to $30 an hour.

My buddy who's 25 drives a Cintas truck makes $1500 a week on average base wage + commission (upsells with his accounts). At 25 I was making $920 a week and making $311 a month student loan repayments.

Obviously, I did it all wrong.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by DKaz

I took on $26k in student loan debt and it took me 10 years in the industry to get to $30 an hour.

My buddy who's 25 drives a Cintas truck makes $1500 a week on average base wage + commission (upsells with his accounts). At 25 I was making $920 a week and making $311 a month student loan repayments.

Obviously, I did it all wrong.

There is this extremely toxic idea that "getting ANY degree" entitles you to be paid highly. Yeah, everyone else who went for the "easy" degree thinks so too.

What I really wish would happen is for Degree's to have Warranties. Every employer must sponsor "a seat" in a program at a public University for every "open" position they will have in 4 years, with the tuition being effectively free for such programs. That would ensure we keep getting Doctors, Nurses, and even people going into the correct trades. The Universities and Employers can do their horse trading (eg Employers at UBC and SFU can trade open seats in their programs with other Universities that carry the same program so that they aren't paying two professors to teach half a class each) and if the student graduates, all the tuition will be paid off for by the sponsored employer, the student just has to work for one of the Sponsors.

There's no possibility of anyone going to University unless their parents saved for it in the first place. Forget this student-loan scam that the government and banks engage in. If it takes 10 years to pay off, you were hussled.

The reason Doctors and Dentists are driving taxis is because they can't afford to pay the licencing and malpractice insurance to actually have a medical practice, or the province won't even recognize their credentials.

And to not derail this topic further.

No, I don't believe you should ever be required to have post-secondary education to get a job. The employer should be willing to train employees to do all aspects of the job, not poaching them from other employers or other countries.

Bus and Train operators are not the same in Vancouver. They are effectively the same everywhere that has "light rail" and a bus system but no automated transit. Additional skill is required to know how to manually drive a train, because it's not a car. If a Skytrain trainset is disabled, and has to be driven without help from Seltrac, there are actual operational procedures similar to what would exist in any other rail system. I imagine the Canada Line's lack of switches and double-tracking in some places actually makes it harder to operate manually. But how often do we manually operate the trains? Maybe once or twice a year when it snows during the morning so the third rails don't freeze over with ice. Any other time it's invoked, it's during an Emergency.

Also keep in mind that you need to have First Responder types of training. You have to take that of your own initiative, if you didn't already have it from working somewhere else.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by st7860

Lower income families get free medical, rental subsidies for whichever apartment they chose to live in, monthly checks to help support their children, free community centre access(in Vancouver) and lots of other interesting benefits

Agreed.
But does this ensure adequate nutrition and sundries for the children, and adequate housing?

Also, is it possible you might list more precisely the benefits given ? (a lot of research for that, I know)
Otherwise stated, does it "bridge the gap," especially where children are concerned?
BTW, I have a degree and a ticket from Cambridge, but some months I go hungry. I don't think having a degree (or two, ... ) automatically entitles anyone to a fat salary, not at all,
but at least a respectable one, if working in one's field of study
I guess I'm really asking if the minimum wage - even a dollar more - provides a safe and healthy home for people, families and individuals both,
especially in high-rent areas like Vancouver area.
It's the kids I am most concerned about, everyone else affected, too, of course.

§§§ In a sort of "synthesis, I think economic expansion and diversity are {or should be] a, ...no ... THE top, overarching priority for the city. Only this way will
we attract more companies, more good jobs, better salaries for responsible and skill-tranied people, not just degree /vs/ non-degree, simplistically put.
There are high paying jobs here, but it seems most of the economy has too many underpaid jobs related to the degree of responsibility required.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by st7860

Coarse language. Viewer discretion may be advised.

$25 an hour for working outdoors. That sounds a bit over the top. Lots of people work outside and don't get $25 an hour.

You're obsessed with cherry picking details and a race to the bottom. Good luck with that.

Why don't we pay cops minimum wage while we're at it?

[st7860]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You're obsessed with cherry picking details and a race to the bottom. Good luck with that.

Why don't we pay cops minimum wage while we're at it?

On one hand you suggest working outdoors deserves a wage of $25 an hour and on the other hand cops deserve less?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by st7860

On one hand you suggest working outdoors deserves a wage of $25 an hour and on the other hand cops deserve less?

Excuse an observation, but you seem to have taken Warren12 rather literally.
Were you to ask him, he might tell you he was being sarcastic.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by st7860

on one hand you suggest working outdoors deserves a wage of $25 an hour and on the other hand cops deserve less?

whoooosh

[st7860]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

whoooosh

onomatopoeia ??