Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[officedweller]

Remember -
they are running the Canada Line trains to a schedule - NOT "as fast as they can"

Do you complain that your car is too slow when you drive the speed limit?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Remember -
they are running the Canada Line trains to a schedule - NOT "as fast as they can"

Do you complain that your car is too slow when you drive the speed limit?

Well I always just assumed you'd run it as fast you could. If there's nothing standing in the way of speed (i.e. traffic or lights) why would you run it slower? Wouldn't you make the schedule based on the speed, not the other way around?

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by MIPS

We could also try for nuclear power somewhere along the inland Frasier, Thompson or Columbia rivers.

Anyways, I think we are wandering off-topic here.

This conversation is better off on the "BC's Massive Site-C Dam gets go ahead" thread found on the Alberta and British Columbia page.

Nuclear is terrifying. Lets create pollution that will last longer into the future than human civilization has been on earth. Whats the 1/2 life on the worst of it... 10,000 years or so. No thanks.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

so back on topic,

i took the Canada Line and Expo Line the other day and i had a question.

does the Expo Line (Waterfront - Main) run at a faster speed? it felt a lot faster for acceleration, deceleration, cornering and average speed. the Canada Line (Waterfront - Aberdeen) felt a lot slower the whole trip leaving the stations, cornering and just average speed felt a lot slower. i also thought it started slowing down a ton sooner before the stations then the Expo did.

It may or may not be but I suspect the feeling of fastness with the Expo has something to do with it being predominantly up in the air while Canada Line is mostly in a tunnel. For what little abo e ground the Canada Line travels too, the segments between the stations and the curves make it a little slower in perception.

But at the end, OD is right...its more about keeping a schedule, not winning a race. I'm surprised ppl thought that automated trains would want to travel as fast as it can...a bit counterintuitive given that machines don't have this desire to want everything NAO!!!!

[Rico]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

so back on topic,

i took the Canada Line and Expo Line the other day and i had a question.

does the Expo Line (Waterfront - Main) run at a faster speed? it felt a lot faster for acceleration, deceleration, cornering and average speed. the Canada Line (Waterfront - Aberdeen) felt a lot slower the whole trip leaving the stations, cornering and just average speed felt a lot slower. i also thought it started slowing down a ton sooner before the stations then the Expo did.

As other posters have said the Canada line runs to a schedule....but because it was a P3 and they cheaped out simple things like super elevating the corners weren't done. This makes it slower and noisier than it needs to be....Still glad they built it though.

[WarrenC12]

But the speed of the Canada Line can be increased in the future can't it? It certainly plows along in areas that it could otherwise go a lot faster... like some of the straight shots in the tunnel, and the bridge over the Fraser.

[MIPS]

The fun thing is that years ago the Expo Line had sections where they would run at nearly 100km/h but they had to slow the trains down over time due to uneven wear on the tracks (when WAS the last time they ground the rails other than 1986?) and the cabins wobbling too much.
That and when entering the stations they were often running too fast to stop for jumpers.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Well I always just assumed you'd run it as fast you could. If there's nothing standing in the way of speed (i.e. traffic or lights) why would you run it slower? Wouldn't you make the schedule based on the speed, not the other way around?

Both lines run trains below their maximum speed in order to have the ability to recover to scheduled operation after delays. There's the normal "service speed", and beyond that they can run at "catch-up speed".

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

But the speed of the Canada Line can be increased in the future can't it? It certainly plows along in areas that it could otherwise go a lot faster... like some of the straight shots in the tunnel, and the bridge over the Fraser.

Yes they can, the Rotem trains will do 90 km/h in catch-up mode, and 80 km/h normal top speed - very close to Expo Line's limits, and the same as what Expo Line actually does today. They just don't run the Rotem trains that fast between most of the stations.

The trains currently run at a speed designed for a 25 minute trip. From what people have said on this forum, 25 minutes is the trip time specified for YVR's funding contribution. After three more stations are added to each trip (YVR2/Capstan/33rd/59th), the trains will still be able to do the trip in 25 minutes. So clearly they will be driven quite a bit faster.

I think there is also an illusion of slowness on the Rotems because of 1) wider trains, 2) quieter engines, 3) smoother ride. Expo Line is pretty crazy noisy and rough, even compared to a lot of older lines in other cities (strange since there are no moving parts). It was disconcerting in 1986, and has only gotten more so over the decades, although it would seem normal to those who ride it everyday. The loud rough ride and long narrow trains make it seem fast like a race car. People complain about the noisy corners on Canada Line at 33rd, but if we are being honest, Dunsmuir Tunnel is just as noisy along its entire length. On the straight stretches the Rotems are so much quieter, they feel like they are hardly moving.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Zassk

People complain about the noisy corners on Canada Line at 33rd, but if we are being honest, Dunsmuir Tunnel is just as noisy along its entire length.

People complain about the noisy corners also have ridden enough transit systems in the world to compare. Come to London and you'll know what is really noisy.

[teriyaki]

Originally Posted by deasine

People complain about the noisy corners also have ridden enough transit systems in the world to compare. Come to London and you'll know what is really noisy.

That or the BART from SFO into the city. Good god that train literally made my ears bleed.

[officedweller]

Or the TTC subway between St. George and Museum, southbound.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Well I always just assumed you'd run it as fast you could. If there's nothing standing in the way of speed (i.e. traffic or lights) why would you run it slower? Wouldn't you make the schedule based on the speed, not the other way around?

The private operator is being paid a fixed sum for a specified number of trips per day in accordance with a schedule.

If you increase the speed and number of trips, you increase the operating costs (electricity, cleaning, wear & tear), without the operator being paid more - so the operator would lose out.

Even on the Expo Line, if operating costs weren't a factor, they'd run the trains at peak frequency all day long.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Both lines run trains below their maximum speed in order to have the ability to recover to scheduled operation after delays. There's the normal "service speed", and beyond that they can run at "catch-up speed".

I knew that, but every time I take the Expo line I feel a noticeable difference, so I was thinking maybe their service friends are different too, regardless of their max speeds.

Originally Posted by Zassk

Yes they can, the Rotem trains will do 90 km/h in catch-up mode, and 80 km/h normal top speed - very close to Expo Line's limits, and the same as what Expo Line actually does today. They just don't run the Rotem trains that fast between most of the stations.

The trains currently run at a speed designed for a 25 minute trip. From what people have said on this forum, 25 minutes is the trip time specified for YVR's funding contribution. After three more stations are added to each trip (YVR2/Capstan/33rd/59th), the trains will still be able to do the trip in 25 minutes. So clearly they will be driven quite a bit faster.

I think there is also an illusion of slowness on the Rotems because of 1) wider trains, 2) quieter engines, 3) smoother ride. Expo Line is pretty crazy noisy and rough, even compared to a lot of older lines in other cities (strange since there are no moving parts). It was disconcerting in 1986, and has only gotten more so over the decades, although it would seem normal to those who ride it everyday. The loud rough ride and long narrow trains make it seem fast like a race car. People complain about the noisy corners on Canada Line at 33rd, but if we are being honest, Dunsmuir Tunnel is just as noisy along its entire length. On the straight stretches the Rotems are so much quieter, they feel like they are hardly moving.

You may be right about general cruising, but one thing I'm sure I can't be mistaken on is acceleration and deceleration at stations. The Expo Line seems to go full speed and then abruptly stop just before the station. The Canada Line feels like it starts slowing down for a while before the station, and takes just as long to get back to full speed after it leaves.

Also, are you sure that the Canada Line will still be able to make the trip in 25 minutes with the addition of new stations? I probably just read it wrong, but I remember reading a document that said the full trip would become 30 minutes with their construction.

Originally Posted by officedweller

Or the TTC subway between St. George and Museum, southbound.



The private operator is being paid a fixed sum for a specified number of trips per day in accordance with a schedule.

If you increase the speed and number of trips, you increase the operating costs (electricity, cleaning, wear & tear), without the operator being paid more - so the operator would lose out.

Even on the Expo Line, if operating costs weren't a factor, they'd run the trains at peak frequency all day long.

Okay that makes sense, thanks for the explanation. I mean it's pretty common sense that running lots of trains is more expensive, but I hadn't thought about needing a fixed schedule when a third party operator is involved.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

You may be right about general cruising, but one thing I'm sure I can't be mistaken on is acceleration and deceleration at stations. The Expo Line seems to go full speed and then abruptly stop just before the station. The Canada Line feels like it starts slowing down for a while before the station, and takes just as long to get back to full speed after it leaves.

Along the bored tunnel, the Canada Line stations are placed on "mounds" within the tunnel, so that gravity assists in braking and accelerating the trains as they enter and leave a station.

I think you should notice that there's a bit of a rise as you enter a each station and a drop as you leave the station (at least for the bored tunnel - not sure about the cut & cover part). The train seems to coast to a stop in the station.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Along the bored tunnel, the Canada Line stations are placed on "mounds" within the tunnel, so that gravity assists in braking and accelerating the trains as they enter and leave a station.

I think you should notice that there's a bit of a rise as you enter a each station and a drop as you leave the station (at least for the bored tunnel - not sure about the cut & cover part). The train seems to coast to a stop in the station.

Interesting effect, I'd never heard of that before. Next time I'm on it downtown I'll be sure to look for it.

[officedweller]

I remember reading that somewhere - and by my observations, it seems to be true (i.e the bored tunnel seems to undulate more than you would expect, even accounting for dipping below the Pacific Centre food court.

[jlousa]

I believe the Russians pioneered the method of uphill into station downhill out of station after their engineers determined how much less stress it would put on the trains.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by deasine

People complain about the noisy corners also have ridden enough transit systems in the world to compare. Come to London and you'll know what is really noisy.

Yeah, the most common comments i hear from foreigners on the Canada Line is how amazingly quiet and smooth it is (and yes this comes from my Japanese, Korean, Chinese, British, and American friends).

Regarding the speed, there are a few factors at play.

First, yes, the Expo / M Lines are faster. Skytrain is actually among the fastest metro systems in the world. It is one of Skytrain's major benefits.

The Canada line operates at very typical heavy rail subway speeds (think Toronto).

Then there are a few phycological factors at play.

The underground aspect can make the ride feel longer and slower vs. being elevated for the majority of the ride.

The Canada Line cars are considerably wider and larger than skytrain vehicles. Again, making them seem slower visually.

Then there is the operational aspect. Remember, they are contracted to get from the airport / Richmond to Waterfront in a set timeframe. There are currently 2 or 3 "ghost" future stations. When these future stations are added, they must still meet the contracted time frame. Therefore, you add a new station, that is an added start / stop / dwell, you then increase the ravel speed everywhere else along the trip, same arrival time.

[SOSS]

Here's yet another reason for improving transit:

If you want to reduce your risk of dying in a car accident, then you should live in a city with lots of public transit and high transit ridership.

“Vancouver has about a tenth of the traffic fatality rate as in automobile dependent cities.”

Full article: http://www.biv.com/article/2014/12/cities-better-transit-have-fewer-traffic-fatalitie/

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

First, yes, the Expo / M Lines are faster. Skytrain is actually among the fastest metro systems in the world. It is one of Skytrain's major benefits.

Yep! Yay linear induction. I wonder how systems like Nagoya's Linimo compare (mag-lev) which apparently runs at 100km/h.