Tempe Development Thread

[PHXFlyer11]

Went by Monti's at lunch, zoning signs are up, so that's a good thing. Hopeful this moves QUICK once approved. Since they new owners paid $19M plus for the land, I don't think they'd sit on it very long at all. From what I gather the office tower is spec, so it'd be a matter of getting the Kimpton locked in. I'm unclear if that's happened or not yet.

I hope this prompts the Marriott AC to move quicker to become first to market, but we'll see I guess.

Also, we are coming up in the next month or two on the 120 deadline for TrendEx to complete the purchase of Southbank land from Tempe. That has been very very quiet since the one article came out in September. Really no updated since, just azCentral and other rehashing the same story with no new updates.

[PHXFlyer11]

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/...oject-hits-roadblock-chinese-backed.html

No shocker here. Seems very suspicious from the beginning. I don't think this lands takes off until Downtown Tempe is completely built out and the ASU Athletic District begins to move, unfortunately.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/...oject-hits-roadblock-chinese-backed.html

No shocker here. Seems very suspicious from the beginning. I don't think this lands takes off until Downtown Tempe is completely built out and the ASU Athletic District begins to move, unfortunately.

I saw renderings of the project on another site and they were incredibly tacky; however, it would've been nice to have at least landed the HQ's building to get some height and development going on that part of the lakefront. ASU's District is no doubt going to be mainly midrise buildings, which is fine density for the interior of the project, but I think lakefront projects should be in the 12-14 story range at the very least. This may have been our best hope at seeing that.

Either way, at least ASU's District will have a vision behind it, whereas we could've been stuck with two random stucco lowrises had the apartments been approved last year.

Luckily, this is land off even the proposed streetcar route, and there are better projects on prime pieces of land to look forward to in the downtown core.

Also, I imagine Kimpton is "locked in" to the Mill + Rio project; it's a matter of whether or not the developer has been able to/will be able to get financing for a hotel that will determine if it comes to fruition or not, however.

[ASU Diablo]

Deal is still a go!!

http://m.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2014/12/30/developer-still-plans-on-buying-land-for-1b.html

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by airomero83

Deal is still a go!!

http://m.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2014/12/30/developer-still-plans-on-buying-land-for-1b.html

This whole project is fishy to me. The secrecy of Tempe in this whole process and the unproven developer just have me doubting.

I'd love to be proven wrong, and I guess we won't have to wait long to see if the transaction is indeed completed.

It's no secret that Alibaba is going to setup shop in the US, my dream is that this is a US office for them, and thus the secrecy behind. I'm sure that is VERY wishful thinking on my part and that they'd engage a more proven developer in a market with direct flights to Asia.

Without a major tenant signed to anchor much of this space, I just do not see this ever panning out, especially so far from Mill.

I really hope the city and university are working on a plan for the remaining lots between this development and Marina Heights. I know the power lines are a pain in the ass, so it may have to be parks or something...

[Don B.]

Time for me to update the Tempe list.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Deleted. Didn't want to turn this into a debate.

[PHXFlyer11]

As noted, the Tempe Lakeside Apartments are under construction and visible for the Marina Heights webcam. I remembered seeing the project on the DRC agenda, but wanted to check out the renderings again. I found a good article with renderings and also references to what I assume is the dead Hayden Harbor.

Looks like 2 stories scaling up to 5, due to power lines http://azbex.com/tempe-lakeside-290-unit-60m-apartments-goes-to-lakefront/

After doing some research i also found Hayden Harbor. Too bad this didn't pan out, that corner would be awesome with these two projects side by side: http://www.wrtdesign.com/projects/detail/hayden-harbor-mixed-use-development/166

[Jjs5056]

Really glad this one broke ground. I've raved quite a bit about it, but it's just exciting to see a project that is truly designed for the site. I love the live/work and retail facing the path toward the Marina; with more density hopefully added via Hayden Harbor one day, that could create a nice little neighborhood enclave on the north side of the lake. One of the few lakefront projects that really got the design part right. It's such a contrast to a project like The Jefferson, which could be in the middle of Omaha, NE.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Really glad this one broke ground. I've raved quite a bit about it, but it's just exciting to see a project that is truly designed for the site. I love the live/work and retail facing the path toward the Marina; with more density hopefully added via Hayden Harbor one day, that could create a nice little neighborhood enclave on the north side of the lake. One of the few lakefront projects that really got the design part right. It's such a contrast to a project like The Jefferson, which could be in the middle of Omaha, NE.

I really think the City of Tempe needs to push for more height now after this project and SALT. I don't have a problem with either of them, they are quite nice, but the remaining lots now must have height.

I think The Jefferson/former Oynx lot needs to be at least 12 stories now. And the Hayden Harbor needs to be at least 14. With that, you'd have nice contrast and height on the North side of the lake. Also, the lot behind Grigio was supposed to be 10 stories of offices. I am guessing they have had trouble finding tenants, otherwise they would've broken ground by now.

The South bank will look so awesome after Mill + Rio, the Hayden Mill revamp, and the Marriot AC, that I just really think we need some balance now on the North side. It's a bit of a shame that that's the last of the North real estate and we've yet to get some decent height.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I really think the City of Tempe needs to push for more height now after this project and SALT. I don't have a problem with either of them, they are quite nice, but the remaining lots now must have height.

I think The Jefferson/former Oynx lot needs to be at least 12 stories now. And the Hayden Harbor needs to be at least 14. With that, you'd have nice contrast and height on the North side of the lake. Also, the lot behind Grigio was supposed to be 10 stories of offices. I am guessing they have had trouble finding tenants, otherwise they would've broken ground by now.

The South bank will look so awesome after Mill + Rio, the Hayden Mill revamp, and the Marriot AC, that I just really think we need some balance now on the North side. It's a bit of a shame that that's the last of the North real estate and we've yet to get some decent height.

I think SALT was a bit of a miss given the amount of workers that'll be coming on board at Marina Heights; 4-5 stories in that location without any barriers is pretty lame. Luckily, the design is pretty nice.

The Jefferson won't be gaining any height... it's already pretty much through the approvals process. Aside from SouthBank, Tempe has never sent back a proposal for more density/height, and I think that was a rare case where they wanted to RFP out the land altogether and had little to do with the proposal itself - I mean, these other apartments aren't much denser and they've had no problems getting through.

Aesthetically, that site would've looked infinitely better at twice the height. And, I'm always a fan of cramming in market rate residential in Tempe, so the slew of lowrises [it seems like only office/hotel can break 10 stories] has been disappointing. However, aside from that, the only other reason to fight for height/density on the north side would be to support hypothetical retail at the Hayden Harbor site - but, who knows what will end up going there anyway. Otherwise, the north side of the lake is cut off completely from downtown and ASU, has no access to to transit, etc. It makes sense that the south side has more intense land use given its proximity to the core. A slight advantage to the lower heights is also that it preserves view corridors from Curry and the 202.

Hopefully, the corner of Rio Salado/Rural gets a signature project that includes residential. The more market rate units near downtown and the lake, the better. I'm not that excited for any lots that get swooped up by the stadium district - I doubt we'll see anything taller than ~8 stories inside of that.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

I think SALT was a bit of a miss given the amount of workers that'll be coming on board at Marina Heights; 4-5 stories in that location without any barriers is pretty lame. Luckily, the design is pretty nice.

The Jefferson won't be gaining any height... it's already pretty much through the approvals process. Aside from SouthBank, Tempe has never sent back a proposal for more density/height, and I think that was a rare case where they wanted to RFP out the land altogether and had little to do with the proposal itself - I mean, these other apartments aren't much denser and they've had no problems getting through.

Aesthetically, that site would've looked infinitely better at twice the height. And, I'm always a fan of cramming in market rate residential in Tempe, so the slew of lowrises [it seems like only office/hotel can break 10 stories] has been disappointing. However, aside from that, the only other reason to fight for height/density on the north side would be to support hypothetical retail at the Hayden Harbor site - but, who knows what will end up going there anyway. Otherwise, the north side of the lake is cut off completely from downtown and ASU, has no access to to transit, etc. It makes sense that the south side has more intense land use given its proximity to the core. A slight advantage to the lower heights is also that it preserves view corridors from Curry and the 202.

Hopefully, the corner of Rio Salado/Rural gets a signature project that includes residential. The more market rate units near downtown and the lake, the better. I'm not that excited for any lots that get swooped up by the stadium district - I doubt we'll see anything taller than ~8 stories inside of that.

I agree that the views from the 202 are awesome and certainly wouldn't want to lose those. That's why I think just 1-2 towers on the north side would really make the whole area feel/appear very dense!

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Don B.

Time for me to update the Tempe list.

Don B. is back? Thought you disappeared permanently.

Welcome back.

[Tempe_Duck]

Looks like USA Place/USA Basketball deal is dead....


http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyf..._after_collapse_of_usa_place_deal_wi.php

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Tempe_Duck

Looks like USA Place/USA Basketball deal is dead....


http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyf..._after_collapse_of_usa_place_deal_wi.php

Just terrible. Feared this would happen for some time. Dammit. This thing was too damn big. The apartments and retail were a bad idea. The hotel, conference center and USA basketball facilities were viable. The rest was not.

[Jjs5056]

I was just searching for news earlier today re: USA Place and expecting to hear that the project ultimately fell through.

Unfortunately, the loss of the USA Place development means Omni is likely out; they were quoted as saying they wouldn't have chosen University and Mill without a project like USA Place backing it up. Both downtown Tempe and downtown Phoenix lack an upscale hotel of Omni's stature, and having that brand in the downtown portfolio would've been one of the defining signs that Tempe had grown up from college town to serious urban center. I'm sure ASU is telling the truth about wanting to find another hotel and conference center - but the fact of the matter is that they have wanted that for decades now. That doesn't mean it's going to happen, especially if the Kimpton, Marriott AC and Hayden Mill boutique hotel all break ground (my prediction: not a chance all 3 + an ASU hotel all make it this cycle). And, it certainly doesn't mean it will be a hotel on the same level of an Omni. And, an 11-story Hilton Garden Inn with stucco architecture on that corner just doesn't do much for me or for Tempe at this point.

Second, I think I've swapped opinions on the importance of the remaining components. Previously, I had mentioned that I felt USA Place was too ambitious with the residential, retail and commercial components and that it was much more likely to secure financing for just the hotel and USA Basketball HQ/event space. But, while USA Basketball would've brought tourism dollars into the economy through year-round programming, I really think the plan as proposed could've been a real game-changer. It was really the first time a developer proposed a Kierland, CityNorth, etc.-type project in the heart of a true urban center. With USA Place, there would've been space for large retail tenants fronting Mill Avenue, with boutique stores lining the interior roads beneath the apartments. This was a chance for downtown to take back some of what was lost with the opening of TMP, and also a chance to finally secure a grocer. There just isn't that much contiguous square footage available downtown for things like grocers and national chain shopping. And, the residential component being above meant that the demand and support for that retail was essentially built in. Downtown still lacks a dense residential base beyond students. This was a chance to capture the young professional market needed to support all of this growth.

Lastly, the fact that this nearly doubled downtown's square footage and was specifically NOT targeting a student demo was another important component being lost. Downtown Tempe wants to be more than just the Mill Avenue District, but if this land gets developed now with ASU-owned properties, it really isn't going to be much more than Mill Ave and Town Lake - Farmer's renaissance is great to see, but it's such a small block and College Ave has turned into an extension of an ASU mall... that isn't to say the two can't and shouldn't coexist, but downtown has finite opportunities for growth and being landlocked by ASU development won't help that.

Anyway, sorry for the usual rant. There's so much positive momentum in Tempe, but without a true residential base, it isn't going to mature in the way it has the potential to. Just think of the retail potential if downtown was able to capture just a portion of the new workers at HFL III and Marina Heights? We might see things like a Whole Foods, urban Target, etc. But, right now, their options are the poorly-managed W6 and Hanover.

[PHXFlyer11]

I agree Jjs.

I would've rather seen ASU only RFP the northern half of that lot. I think that was a fatal mistake. Too big a property, too much funding required.

Do a new RFP for USA Basketball facility, hotel and conference center on the north half the lot and RFP or sell the south half later on and be done with it.

Smaller lot RFP with the same requirements will force density to hit all components of RFP and but not be forced to fill empty space with 5 story apartments and retail, they'd simply either be a couple floors in the project or excluded.

I honestly blame the university for this. Never should've RFP'd the whole lot.

My impression though is that the New Times is wrong. I think that USA Basketball has not pulled out, it's that the developer cannot get finance and the developer is out.

I'd re-RFP with smaller lot for hotel, conf and USA basketball.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Tempe_Duck

Looks like USA Place/USA Basketball deal is dead....


http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyf..._after_collapse_of_usa_place_deal_wi.php

It does not seem dead to me yet, same story as the last few months...finance trouble.

Everyone is loving the low gas prices but that usuallyt signifies a downturn in the overall global economey which might be why a lot of these projects are starting to stall out. The financers might be waiting to make sure they arent left with ghost developments.

Same thing happened in 2007/2008 if you all remember.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Obadno

It does not seem dead to me yet, same story as the last few months...finance trouble.

Everyone is loving the low gas prices but that usuallyt signifies a downturn in the overall global economey which might be why a lot of these projects are starting to stall out. The financers might be waiting to make sure they arent left with ghost developments.

Same thing happened in 2007/2008 if you all remember.

Not really. 07/08 was a housing bubble. There is not a housing bubble right approaching. The global economy is indeed weak, but the US doing well and at an accelerating pace.

I agree it's finance trouble. I think luxury apartments would be more viable AFTER Marina Heights, the Mill + Rio office tower, the HFL 3 office tower are all completed. Bad timing unfortunately. But we should use this to our advantage and save the southern half the lot for more dense development where there is demand.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I agree Jjs.

I would've rather seen ASU only RFP the northern half of that lot. I think that was a fatal mistake. Too big a property, too much funding required.

Do a new RFP for USA Basketball facility, hotel and conference center on the north half the lot and RFP or sell the south half later on and be done with it.

Smaller lot RFP with the same requirements will force density to hit all components of RFP and but not be forced to fill empty space with 5 story apartments and retail, they'd simply either be a couple floors in the project or excluded.

I honestly blame the university for this. Never should've RFP'd the whole lot.

My impression though is that the New Times is wrong. I think that USA Basketball has not pulled out, it's that the developer cannot get finance and the developer is out.

I'd re-RFP with smaller lot for hotel, conf and USA basketball.

Yes, I definitely agree that a big problem is the sheer size of the lot. That's what was so appealing about the USA Place plan; it took an overwhelming space and somehow scaled it down to pedestrian-friendly streets and essentially created a new downtown neighborhood. Again, it would've been great to show that the outdoor mall model of 2 anchors (Omni conference center and USA Basketball event center) with supporting retail in the middle is viable in urban locations.

That's unfortunately the problem with splitting the lot in two and hoping to develop only the hotel and USA Basketball components. In order for the retail to survive, they need those anchors on either end feeding into the center. Also, while the USA Basketball center was scheduled for a decent amount of programming, a large conference center hotel adjacent to a large events complex could create quite a large deadzone.

I wonder if they'll go back to the proposals submitted and select the runner-up or if they are required by law to go back and start the process all over again? If starting over, they might as well require the necessary components for the USA Basketball move (remember that only the hotel and conference center were required). The problem is USA Basketball apparently only has 15 employees, and with the amount of office space in the works in downtown, it might be hard to incorporate a commercial component into any feasible proposal. 15 people hardly qualifies as an anchor tenant. In fact, the commercial is probably a harder sell than the residential -- there is definite demand for urban living and there are hardly any downtown projects in the pipeline with a housing piece.

I highly doubt any of the other proposals included such an ambitious plan and I would be really disappointed to see one with massive garages, one-use buildings, unrealistic future phases for the southern portion, etc.