Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Metro-One]

Instead of a tap what about a swipe system? Or would that be too slow? Why not just censors on the doors akin to theft censors at the exit of a store? These are probably stupid questions I know.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by quobobo

It wouldn't be trivial to implement, but one obvious way around the latency of cell networks would be to keep a local cache of card balances on each bus and update it with deltas over the cell network. The amount of data is small enough that it would be manageable even with significantly more riders.

It's technically possible, but it would require a lot more development work than the simple "check the balance on a centralized remote server" approach they seem to have taken.

When the system was first announced, it was my understanding that because cell coverage is never 100%, that the system would be able to do this anyway.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Instead of a tap what about a swipe system? Or would that be too slow? Why not just censors on the doors akin to theft censors at the exit of a store? These are probably stupid questions I know.

If they really wanted to, they could use stronger NFC sensors and just do a "check all passengers are still on the bus" scan once it pulls away from the curb, instead of tap-off. The tap-on would be the authorization to deduct from the card by boarding.

This sounds a bit impractical, and probably privacy-destroying since it would also pick up everyone's MSP/EDL/PASSPORT in the process as well as credit/debit cards.

And no, anti-theft in stores ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_article_surveillance ) is just very cheaply done, it doesn't uniquely identify the product, just that the item wasn't desensititized at the checkout. Something like this on transit would erase people's mag-stripe cards by being within 2 meters of the device.

[Metro-One]

What about a swipe system then? Everyone swipes as they enter the bus (Although that would require entering only at a single entrance). Not really any slower than the current system (maybe faster since no cash)

And then have swipe stations at the bus stops for departing? If you forget to swipe at the exiting bus stop you simply get charged for the max length of that bus route.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

When the system was first announced, it was my understanding that because cell coverage is never 100%, that the system would be able to do this anyway.

The tap-on is likely a pre-authorization and doesn't actually deduct anything until a matching tap-off event is registered. This is likely the mechanism Cubic is having a problem with, since users will just hold the card to the reader long enough to hear a beep/see a light. So if the cellular network is unavailable or slow during tap-off, then it slows down the bus boarding while people wait to get off.

It is my opinion that the modems are to blame, if not the entire reader hardware itself. Basically the reason I can make that educated guess is because the problem doesn't exist on the rail system, which logically isn't running over the cell network.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

What about a swipe system then? Everyone swipes as they enter the bus (Although that would require entering only at a single entrance). Not really any slower than the current system (maybe faster since no cash)

And then have swipe stations at the bus stops for departing? If you forget to swipe at the exiting bus stop you simply get charged for the max length of that bus route.

That has the same problem as proposing wifi connections at every stop. Translink would need to run a lot of network backhaul, fixed LTE bridges, or satellite modems. All are substantial costs and also have the added problem of vandalism.

Like everyone that gets on a bus tends to bring 1-3 wireless devices with them (cell phones, ebook readers, tablets, game consoles) so if the cellular network can't cope with a bus going 60kph and 30 cell devices trying to hand off with the same towers, the problem is with the cell carrier's end. But I still assert the problem is on cubic's choice of hardware ( someone had a Windows mobile screenshot from one of the readers) or how it's been installed ( are there antennas on the outside of the bus? Are the bus windows tinted? etc.)

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Kisai

If they really wanted to, they could use stronger NFC sensors and just do a "check all passengers are still on the bus" scan once it pulls away from the curb...

That's not feasible with NFC. The "N" in "NFC" stands for "near", and the whole point of the standard is that you have to put the card being scanned close to the scanner. It's designed into the very heart of the standard as a security measure so that cards can't be scanned from a distance. Scanning a busload of passengers would be the very antithesis of what NFC is all about. In fact a lot of people keep their RFID-tagged cards in Faraday shields specifically to prevent that kind of thing.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by Kisai

That has the same problem as proposing wifi connections at every stop. Translink would need to run a lot of network backhaul, fixed LTE bridges, or satellite modems. All are substantial costs and also have the added problem of vandalism.

Like everyone that gets on a bus tends to bring 1-3 wireless devices with them (cell phones, ebook readers, tablets, game consoles) so if the cellular network can't cope with a bus going 60kph and 30 cell devices trying to hand off with the same towers, the problem is with the cell carrier's end. But I still assert the problem is on cubic's choice of hardware ( someone had a Windows mobile screenshot from one of the readers) or how it's been installed ( are there antennas on the outside of the bus? Are the bus windows tinted? etc.)

As long as translink(cubic) was using either telus or rogers I don't think it would be an LTE problem(maybe a windows problem?)

If they were using Bell .. that could be an LTE problem since bell is a distinct 3rd behind telus and rogers.

[WarrenC12]

Any journalists on here want to file a FOI and help the rest of us out?

Unless it makes Translink look really bad, then please wait until after the referendum.

[Spork]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Any journalists on here want to file a FOI and help the rest of us out?

Unless it makes Translink look really bad, then please wait until after the referendum.

It's easy enough to file one as a citizen. I've always assumed that the media had filed one already, but perhaps not. I will file a request this afternoon, as it is free and takes about 15 minutes online. They have something like 30 business days to respond, so I'll return with the results at the end of February. My guess is that they will block it as it contains proprietary Cubic information (e.g. something to do with the technology of their readers).

[dpogue]

We're not the only ones with fare card issues, Calgary is in a similar situation (with a different vendor).
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...-transit-smart-card-faces-glitches-again

[DKaz]

There just shouldn't be any need to tap out of a bus unless you need an over-debited portion refunded. No one's ever going to need a 3 zone fare taking the number 20 for example.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

That's not feasible with NFC. The "N" in "NFC" stands for "near", and the whole point of the standard is that you have to put the card being scanned close to the scanner. It's designed into the very heart of the standard as a security measure so that cards can't be scanned from a distance. Scanning a busload of passengers would be the very antithesis of what NFC is all about. In fact a lot of people keep their RFID-tagged cards in Faraday shields specifically to prevent that kind of thing.

Oh it's certainly possible, they can be read from 3ft away with out-of-spec nfc readers. However I meant from a practical standpoint, even if it was possible with then equipment they have now, the privacy implications would never let it happen.

It would be more practical to have a wifi access point on every bus, and "apps" that communicate with the bus wifi to determine if the bus rider is still on the bus. This is a much closer and cheaper practical application of existing in-spec hardware that most people have already. Want your privacy? Then always buy one-way fares with cash.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Oh it's certainly possible, they can be read from 3ft away with out-of-spec nfc readers.

There's a big difference between 3 feet and a busload. An NFC reader can put out a stronger RF field but the cards will only respond with the ordinary, weak signal to be read. So you'll find signals from nearer cards swamping the ones that are further away. Even in the best possible scenarios there will end up being unread cards, and then you're right back to square one again.

[Meraki]

http://buzzer.translink.ca/2015/01/take-...ou-might-have-spotted-our-new-cng-buses/

The new bus facility being built on the border between New West and Richmond will be equipped with CNG fueling stations.

Probably once the North Van depot closes and the new one opens the Burnaby depot on Boundary will take over the North Van routes, and the new one will take over the New West/East Burnaby services.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Meraki

http://buzzer.translink.ca/2015/01/take-...ou-might-have-spotted-our-new-cng-buses/

The new bus facility being built on the border between New West and Richmond will be equipped with CNG fueling stations.

Probably once the North Van depot closes and the new one opens the Burnaby depot on Boundary will take over the North Van routes, and the new one will take over the New West/East Burnaby services.

Didn't they just decommission all of the CNG buses a few years back?

I'm in full support of CNG for buses, but god damnit make up your F-ING mind.

[Millennium2002]

Nope, CNG buses are still around at the Tri-Cities area. In fact, TransLink just put into service about two dozen new CNG buses (XN40s).

The confusion stems from the fact that TransLink converted some of the first generation CNG buses (C40LFs) to diesel a few years back while the rest from the same era were scrapped soon after. The reason given at the time was that the older CNG technology was unreliable.

[SOSS]

So Translink is investing more resources into CNG... what is going to happen when the provincial golden egg of LNG hits the market in the next few years? I assume the technology is not the same for compressed as it is for liquefied.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SOSS

So Translink is investing more resources into CNG... what is going to happen when the provincial golden egg of LNG hits the market in the next few years? I assume the technology is not the same for compressed as it is for liquefied.

All you have to do is warm up LNG to turn it into CNG. The only reason they liquify is it to reduce the volume for long distance transport. But in the liquid form it has to be kept at cryogenic temperatures, so it's not really feasible for a bus fleet.

[WarrenC12]

Thanks for the background.

As for LNG... NG is NG. Compress it a little to heat your home and water, a little more to power cars, trucks and boats, and a lot more to liquefy it for transport.

As an aside, I get really confused at the opposition to more NG and Hydro projects. They are some of the cleanest forms of energy we have on this planet.