DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Zmapper]

In Fort Collins, Transfort's 16-Harmony route is being extended in a few weeks to the Harmony Transit Center once an hour, weekdays.

[CharlesCO]

Where did the commuter rail cars go? I'm glad I got to see them while I was here the last time. Those are some serious trains.

[guppyflyer]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

Where did the commuter rail cars go?

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/ep3_120

Image credit: RTD Denver

[TakeFive]

^^ Can't be leaving spanking new trains just sitting out in the elements. It might snow. Plus it gets cold at night.

[austingood]

Originally Posted by bobg

It's encouraging to see. However, The COS route and the Ft Collins route bug me a little in that they both appear to originate/terminate at park and rides near the freeway when it would be a small additional amount of time to go To/From the South Transit Center in Fort Collins, and the downtown terminal in COS. Both those transit centers would provide better car-free connectivity throughout those respective cities than the park and rides on the periphery.

Oh well it's the first stab at something like this by CDOT, and I am sure they can adjust over time.

Out of curiosity I emailed CDOT to ask about the Fort Collins terminus. They said they looked into it but decided there wasn't enough parking at the South Transit Center to accommodate Transfort and the CDOT bus. It does bug me that the reason for not making the connection essentially is that it would be too popular, but whatever. At least we're getting a direct to Denver bus.

Edit: Also, the bus is being called Bustang haha!

Edit #2: Just got a follow up email saying that 2 midday trips will service the Downtown Transit Center. Better than nothing!

[bobg]

Originally Posted by austingood

Out of curiosity I emailed CDOT to ask about the Fort Collins terminus. They said they looked into it but decided there wasn't enough parking at the South Transit Center to accommodate Transfort and the CDOT bus. It does bug me that the reason for not making the connection essentially is that it would be too popular, but whatever. At least we're getting a direct to Denver bus.

Edit: Also, the bus is being called Bustang haha!

It kind of makes sense from an inter-agency friction standpoint since Transfort owns/maintains the South Transit Center and this is CDOT's initiative and CDOT maintains the Harmony Rd Park and Ride. If they need more parking due to a CDOT initiative it wouldn't surprise me if Transfort asked them to foot the bill. It's too bad though I think providing a direct transfer to 5 local lines (including Max BRT) and 1 regional transfer to FLEX would be worth figuring out the parking situation between the two parties.

Like Zmapper pointed out though they are extending the 16 so there's at least one local transfort connection, but not as good as it could be IMO.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by austingood

Edit #2: Just got a follow up email saying that 2 midday trips will service the Downtown Transit Center. Better than nothing!

That's good news, and even better than the South Transit Center. Hopefully more can end up there over time.

[Cirrus]

Building a transit system with shitty connectivity means you'll never have a transit system that very many people use. It means you're going to top out with a mode share of 1 or 2 percent. Sometimes that's the right answer anyway, and Colorado Springs might be that kind of place. Sometimes you have to start small.

Note that the exact same argument about it being worthwhile even with a low mode share is true for bike lanes too, for exactly the same reasons.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Building a transit system with shitty connectivity means you'll never have a transit system that very many people use. It means you're going to top out with a mode share of 1 or 2 percent. Sometimes that's the right answer anyway, and Colorado Springs might be that kind of place. Sometimes you have to start small.

Note that the exact same argument about it being worthwhile even with a low mode share is true for bike lanes too, for exactly the same reasons.

This is relevant for transportation within communities, but it's completely irrelevant for intercity transportation. We're never going to have the interconnectivity, node density, or frequency to reach a critical mass to make that either sustainable or worthwhile; a "transit system very many people use." You just can't use the same arguments when we're talking about Colo Spgs - Denver transportation as we do when we're talking about South Broadway - Highland.

[bcp]

i'm a little curious as to why CDOT is running buses at all...why not work with Greyhound / MegaBus to make this happen? Ridership too low?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bcp

i'm a little curious as to why CDOT is running buses at all...why not work with Greyhound / MegaBus to make this happen? Ridership too low?

Probably a combination of that and unease at a lack of control . But it's not like CDOT will be operating their own transit agency. They'll contract with a charter bus company for the vehicles and staff.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

This is relevant for transportation within communities, but it's completely irrelevant for intercity transportation. We're never going to have the interconnectivity, node density, or frequency to reach a critical mass

It's highly relevant for any intercity transportation that connects sizable urban populations, and places like the US northeast corridor prove it. What you're really saying is that it's irrelevant for travel to Colorado Springs because the land use pattern there can't support it. And you're probably right, but let's not confuse the specifics about Colorado Springs with any kind of universal truth.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bcp

i'm a little curious as to why CDOT is running buses at all...why not work with Greyhound / MegaBus to make this happen? Ridership too low?

Good question. Let's look up Greyhound's Colorado service. I can't link to a schedule directly, but if you pretend to be booking a trip on the Greyhound website, you can pull up the schedule.

And what do you know! There are *already* 6 round trip Greyhound buses per day between downtown Colorado Springs and downtown Denver. Here is the CoS station. So it turns out there *is* a market for downtown-to-downtown service, by a private company, with *exactly* the same number of round trips per day as this proposed CDOT service. Which in fact means the downtown-to-downtown market is being served by the private sector for profit, while the suburban park and ride market needs government operating subsidies or it doesn't run. lol.

I suppose this is where Greyhound's image problem as something only poor people use matters. If they can support 6 round trips a day now, and none of us knew, they could probably support a lot more if the middle class started considering it an option. Which, BTW, is exactly why Greyhound is growing its alternative BoltBus brand in other markets.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's highly relevant for any intercity transportation that connects sizable urban populations, and places like the US northeast corridor prove it. What you're really saying is that it's irrelevant for travel to Colorado Springs because the land use pattern there can't support it. And you're probably right, but let's not confuse the specifics about Colorado Springs with any kind of universal truth.

It's irrelevant for Colorado, the only universe that matters for this discussion. It is irrelevant for Colorado Springs, Pueblo, Greeley, Fort Collins, the I-70 Corridor - and I'll go even further - it's irrelevant for Cheyenne and Albuquerque too.

I would even say it's irrelevant in the U.S. west (although California is going to try and prove me wrong), midwest, mid-atlantic, and south.

Sure, it might be relevant in the U.S. northeast, which just so happens to be the densest continuous strip of human habitation on this side of the planet. But that is exactly why, in my mind, the U.S. northeast is not relevant to any discussion I am likely to have.

Nothing beats the daily CityLab article about the end of the car and the advent of a new age in transportation...written from the comfortable confines of Manhattan. Keep losing those Congressional seats to states where everything you write about is irrelevant. The only discussion I want to have is what can work in most of the country. And plopping a northeast idea is always going to fail.

Sure, Greyhound has always been there. It's a niche market. Hardly what anybody would call serious transit, or even remotely relevant. Any mode that is moving *fill in the blank* hundreds is not worth discussing. Thousands matter. Tens of thousands are worth spending money on.

[TakeFive]

Slow down, you move too fast.
You got to make the morning last.
Just kicking down the cobble stones.
Looking for fun and feelin' groovy.

Hello lamppost,
What cha knowing?
I've come to watch your flowers growing.
Ain't cha got no rhymes for me?
Doot-in' doo-doo,
Feelin' groovy.
(Simon & Garfunkel)

hngn.com

Speaking of buses, did you see where a 1955 VW Bus sold for a groovy $235,000 at auction?

[Cirrus]

Any mode that is moving *fill in the blank* hundreds is not worth discussing.

Then why are you interested in discussing Colorado Springs' park and ride bus?

While we're at it, we can ignore all future sidewalks and local roads too.

Except that's mathematically invalid. The problem with saying only large projects matter is that even they are only a blip in the grand scheme of things. 1,000 small changes will have a greater cumulative effect on almost any system than 1 or 2 big ones. That's why we don't empty out CDOT's capital budget in order to sink every dollar into making I-25 30 lanes wide.

You've agued this very point in the past. And you were right.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Then why are you interested in discussing Colorado Springs' park and ride bus?

While we're at it, we can ignore all future sidewalks and local roads too.

Except that's mathematically invalid. The problem with saying only large projects matter is that even they are only a blip in the grand scheme of things. 1,000 small changes will have a greater cumulative effect on almost any system than 1 or 2 big ones. That's why we don't empty out CDOT's capital budget in order to sink every dollar into making I-25 30 lanes wide.

You've agued this very point in the past. And you were right.

I'm all for small projects that can have a cumulative effect. Except there is not realistic number of intercity projects that can make a difference here. They're just a waste of time. I think intercity buses should be offered as a service for people who have no other alternatives, fairly infrequently, by the state, on a subsidized basis even. But that's a different service altogether. I do not think intercity has any place in a discussion of "real" transit connectivity.

The park-n-ride is merely a subsidy for Downtown Denver employment. Is it a waste of money? Yeah, probably.

I'm all for a system of VW bus combis. It'd be like Uber for non-rich-white-people. Or like regular transportation everywhere else on the planet.

[The Dirt]

I'd like to see this http://www.amtrak.com/auto-train offered from Denver to Chicago or SF. No need to drive through treacherous mountains or boring plains to get to anywhere worth going.

[bunt_q]

Have you ever taken the train to Chicago? It's like 24 hours, if you're lucky. It's not exaggerating to say you can beat the train by five hours driving, 10 is easily possible!

[The Dirt]

Amtrak is ungodly slow in every direction from Denver. Other than finding ways to speed up the train, adding a car option is the only alternative that makes the train attractive. I'm taking about family vacations here.