Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Reading the RFP docs suggests it will be awarded in January, and the work should be completed by the end of summer.
This is just for the initial technical services to create the reference case and do the initial planning and engineering for the Broadway extension to Arbutus.

This is just the first round of technical planning for the new subway line.
Where are the stations going to be?
Where are the tunnels going to be?
How does it connect to VCC station?
How does Arbutus get built so a future extension can be done?
How much will this cost (ballpark educated guess)?


Future RFPs in 2016 will delve into the gritty details of engineering the tunnels. stations, portals, elevated tracks, more detailed (and presumably accurate) costs and financial planning.

Thanks for the information! This is the first mass transit line in Vancouver that I'll be following from the very beginning so I'm excited to see it all progress.

[jsbertram]

Quel Suprise?

Expect another year without fully working fare gates and Compass cards on transit
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Expect+a...ompass+cards+transit/10679177/story.html

After $200 million, it seems they are too far into this project to bail & start again.

[MIPS]

This is humiliating.
We can build, maintain and extend the "perfect"**** urban transit system but we can't even setup a modern faregate system.

Give it up TransLink. The contractor failed. Now rip them apart for the screwup.

**** This statement will vary by region.

[Metro-One]

Yeah, how hard is it to install a system that has been done countless times around the world. I hope Translink nails the contractor against the wall. Then, just go to Japan, ask whoever installs their fair gate systems and transplant that system in Vancouver. Works without a hitch here.

[Spork]

Does anybody know if the contract details are public? I would imagine that they would not be as they involve a private 3rd party, but it would be interesting to see what penalty or "drop dead" clauses there are, if any.

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, how hard is it to install a system that has been done countless times around the world. I hope Translink nails the contractor against the wall. Then, just go to Japan, ask whoever installs their fair gate systems and transplant that system in Vancouver. Works without a hitch here.

What system(s) specifically were introduced on-time, on-budget, to the full specs of the contract?

I personally think that its good to delay until proper testing is in place but any cost overruns should be carried by the contractor. Unless there are some unforeseen circumstances... but I can't think of any. Unless translink changed the terms...?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, how hard is it to install a system that has been done countless times around the world.

A system which records riders getting on and off such a huge bus fleet certainly hasn't been done "countless times". Yes, there are countless faregate installations in rapid transit systems, but tap/on, tap/off systems on buses are a much different story. That's the functionality that's causing all the problems for Translink's faregate vendor.

And to add insult to injury, once they figure it out then other fleets will start implementing it too, and by virtue of our trailblazing their installations will go a lot more smoothly. Then everyone will point to those other installations as proof that Translink could have done it better.

[ssiguy]

On second thought, the Canada Line stations were built much too large, they bought far too many trains, and I think even when Vancouver hits 10 million capacity will never be an issue.
Clearly I am wrong and all my concerns were ridiculous and there are simply no issues with the line. I will be sure not comment further on any Vancouver forums on SSP and will ignore the Vancouver forum section as nearly everyone outside of Vancouver on SSP does although why I can't imagine.

[WarrenC12]

Ya the bus tap on/off is obviously the issue. Whether or not the contractor is on the hook will be in the details of the contract.

People are up in arms about the timeline, but IMO the cost is more important. It's not like the system isn't operating today, or is even negatively impacted.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Clearly I am wrong and all my concerns were ridiculous and there are simply no issues with the line. I will be sure not comment further on any Vancouver forums on SSP and will ignore the Vancouver forum section as nearly everyone outside of Vancouver on SSP does although why I can't imagine.

Hey, I'm disappointed in the station sizes as well. Actually, my biggest gripe about the stations is that virtually all of them have only a single entrance, which often means you have to cross two streets to get into a station which was directly below you to start with. I guess when I was a kid living in Toronto I got used to their subway stations, which typically have entrances from each quadrant of an intersection.

Nonetheless, trying to claim that the system is already at it's ultimate capacity with respect to station sizes is simply untrue.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

On second thought, the Canada Line stations were built much too large, they bought far too many trains, and I think even when Vancouver hits 10 million capacity will never be an issue.
Clearly I am wrong and all my concerns were ridiculous and there are simply no issues with the line. I will be sure not comment further on any Vancouver forums on SSP and will ignore the Vancouver forum section as nearly everyone outside of Vancouver on SSP does although why I can't imagine.

[officedweller]

More time for me to use up my Faresavers!

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

A system which records riders getting on and off such a huge bus fleet certainly hasn't been done "countless times". Yes, there are countless faregate installations in rapid transit systems, but tap/on, tap/off systems on buses are a much different story. That's the functionality that's causing all the problems for Translink's faregate vendor.

Also add the multiple zones as an issue as well.

From the Compass Card thread:

Surprisingly - a researched story from the Vancouver Sun:

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/metro/M...buses+TransLink+says/10336549/story.html

[WarrenC12]

London uses Cubic for the tube with several zones pretty easily.

I believe the buses are also "tap on" only. Sounds like a reasonable solution. You can also change the fee structure of buses vs. trains as well. So many people connect to a skytrain anyway, buses can reasonably be $1.50 to get on, whereas Skytrain would be $2 + $0.20/station, or whatever.

To sound cliche, it seems like Translink hasn't "thought outside the box" enough.

[officedweller]

It's probably also a situation where you want to introduce changes gradually
- rather than compounding the confusion on how to use the fare card with a new fare structure.

But it sounds like they'll have to jump in with fare structure changes too.

[WarrenC12]

You can bury yourself trying to deal with every scenario and 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 out there. Sometimes you just gotta jump in and deal with the consequences as they come up. Throw a ton of attendants at every station and you'll be fine.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

A system which records riders getting on and off such a huge bus fleet certainly hasn't been done "countless times". Yes, there are countless faregate installations in rapid transit systems, but tap/on, tap/off systems on buses are a much different story. That's the functionality that's causing all the problems for Translink's faregate vendor.

And to add insult to injury, once they figure it out then other fleets will start implementing it too, and by virtue of our trailblazing their installations will go a lot more smoothly. Then everyone will point to those other installations as proof that Translink could have done it better.

Well for the time being could they not activate the rail portion of the project? Also forget the fair zone set up and install distance based fairs. As for buses...a creative slution obviously needs to be found. Single fair for local buses? Higher fair for B-Lines? Fair gate stations (same card as skytrain) for Rapid Buses such as the 555?

[Spork]

I think the issue with going all in right now and figuring out the tap out later down the line is due to the very size of our bus network. Sure, they could just say $1.50pp for the bus and $2 + $0.20/station for train, but how fair would it be for a 1.5 hour bus ride from White Rock to cost $1.50 when a 15 minute ride from Davie+Denman to Robson Square costs the same? While the current fare zones aren't entirely fair, they at least have some resemblance of an effort towards "fairness". Further, I don't know how much or how accurate Translink's data is, but I could see them going all-in with a temporary change like this and royally screwing it up, and magically falling $300m short of revenue expectations due to poor research and planning.

The advantage that cities like London have over us is fewer long-haul bus routes and more hop-on hop-off use. Their larger metro system and greater density lends to the fairness of a flat rate bus service.

I don't disagree that Translink has bungled this thing from Day 1 (think: RFP drafting), but I don't think there is a quick fix at this stage.

My 2 cents.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Spork

I don't disagree that Translink has bungled this thing from Day 1 (think: RFP drafting)...

The best RFP in the world isn't going to save you from unexpected problems. The very best it can do is to impose penalties or reduce costs if those problems occur. And I'm not sure that we know that those kinds of clauses weren't in the contract that was signed.

[Meraki]

TransLink signed with Cubic, who aren't exactly nobodies in the business (having done London Oyster, TransLink's magnetic media, and others around the world)

Clueless comments such as "Yeah, how hard is it to install a system that has been done countless times around the world." are dumb because TransLink went with one of (if not the largest) gate/card companies around who have a long record of implementations larger than Vancouver.

TransLink requested functionality of tap-on tap-off on buses, which is something new to the industry. New functionality paired with poor Rogers cellular service (required for the bus to communicate with the Compass back end) is causing the myriad of delays we're seeing today.

The gates could have been activated for SkyTrain a long time ago, but the requirement that buses perform both real time tap-in and tap-out is gumming up everything. The bus mounted Compass readers having to communicate over cellular causes an unacceptable latency per tap as even at the best of times there's at least 40ms delay, and it's jittery so one tap may be 40ms, the next will be 400ms. Perhaps this is a notable reason why no other authority has implemented the tap-off on buses.

Without knowing the inner negotiations the fault lies shared between Cubic and TransLink. Cubic either did or should have told them tap-out over cellular isn't achievable with today's technology. TransLink should have accepted that and changed the implementation, not spend more time, money and effort demanding they "make it work!" leading Cubic to shuffle their feet for a few months and say "We told you it can't be done then, it can't be done now."

[dpogue]

There are some details from a Vancouver Sun article dating back to July 2014:

http://www.vancouversun.com/Rollout+Translink+Compass+Card+system+delayed+again/10011230/story.html

...

Kelsey said field testing has shown the bus card readers -- or mobile validators -- on buses are taking longer than anticipated to scan the Compass cards, up from the target of 0.3 seconds to several seconds. There are also problems with the tapping in and out of the cards on buses, with Translink estimating an eight per cent to 10 per cent error rate on the mobile validators.

...

But Kelsey argues the "rail, marine and the rest of the system is working quite robustly" and expects Cubic will be able to fix the problems by this fall. Another update on the system is expected in October, but Kelsey said no timeline has been set as to when the cards will be rolled out to West Coast Express passengers and then the mass public. Kelsey insists the project's budget, which rose from $171.3 million to $194 million, will not increase as Cubic is responsible for the cost of fixing the problems. TransLink will not pay Cubic, he added, until the program is working efficiently.

...