Canada's Panamerica Identity

[BretttheRiderFan]

As for the hunting discussion, it's definitely a part of the culture here in the Canadian prairies. Lots of people who live in Edmonton or Calgary will go hunting somewhere at least once a year, but it's not like it is in Michigan, that's for sure. But if you live somewhere like Grande Prairie or Prince Albert or *insert anywhere close to forest or gaming areas* hunting is definitely a major part of the recreational culture.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I think its quite ridiculous that Ann Arbor is defended as a regular American small town when it is in fact one of the richest small towns on the continent.

When the fuck did I defend Ann Arbor as a regular American small town?

Rousseau stated that racial tension, gun violence, and a pervasive sense of menace at nighttime was the common denominator throughout the US.

Do you understand what those words mean?

Ann Arbor is clearly an outlier, but a statement as outlandish as the one Rousseau made makes no room for outliers. It is a blanket statement. And it is moronic.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You can hunt wildfowl in San Francisco Bay. Okay? You can get a permit to take your rifle to parts of San Francisco Bay to shoot at birds.

You know how I know that? Because I did a 2.2 second Google search on hunting in San Francisco.

Now try to imagine anyone hunting ducks anywhere along Lake Ontario in the Golden Horseshoe.

Are we really going to argue about what "common denominator" means in the context of a discussion?

Ann Arbor might not have so many hunters as the countryside surrounding it. It could be "a liberal oasis surrounded by reality," as my sister says people describe many college towns in the U.S. Though another 2.2 second Google search produced a news article about culling the deer population in Ann Arbor, in which the follow sentence appeared:

"Kunselman said a lot of hunters in Ann Arbor would volunteer..."

No need to finish the sentence. "A lot of hunters in Ann Arbor"? Interesting. What does that suggest? That even a liberal oasis such as Ann Arbor has people hunting? Another Google search produced a U.S. government site with an article on hunting on the Detroit River.

Now try to imagine reading a sentence anywhere in which the phrase "a lot of hunters in Waterloo/Toronto/Hamilton" etc. refers to anything other than job placement services or dating sites.

I was referring to your assertion that everywhere in the US has racial tension, gun violence, and a sense of menace in the night time.

Which is bullshit. All of those things exist in the US to a greater extent than they do in Canada, in aggregate; yes. But it does not exist ubiquitously in the US.

Just so that you don't forget, this is your assertion:

Guns, violence, racial tension, socioeconomic disparities, loud people, aggressive people, a vague but palpable sense of menace at night: these are common denominators throughout the U.S. that override the differences between San Francisco and rural Alabama as compared to perceived similarities between southern Ontario and Michigan.

You can search on Google for hunting terms all you want, but that is one outlandish statement. It leaves no room for exceptions. Unless you don't know the English language very well and are unaware of what words like "common denominator" or "throughout" mean.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

When I worked in that town, I did not see one single bus, or greasy spoon diner (they probably existed but couldn'thave been numerous to escape my attention), it was all sit down restaurants and fancy malls, it was all consciously planned sprawl with no organic connection to the black suburbs near it.

Are you serious? I use public transit every day. It's always full during rush hour, and even when it's not rush hour it's busy. And there's two separate public transport bus systems in one small town. How do you miss that??

And no greasy spoon diners? What about Frank's? Angelo's? North Side Grill? Zingerman's? These are like the staple restaurants of the town. The most well known local joints.

Fancy malls? What? Which one? Plymouth mall? The one further down South State? Not fancy in any sense.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan

As a born and raised Albertan, I have never felt anywhere but "at home" in Quebec and anywhere else in this country. Now, LA? New York? DC? Pretty much any large city in America that I've visited has felt more foreign to me than Montreal or Quebec, and I can't really pinpoint why. There's a certain vibe and edginess there that hits me personally that I don't feel in Montreal. I don't really get it in rural America at all, but then again I've only visited the rural north of the US. This is just me though. This isn't to say that I haven't enjoyed my travels in the US and don't have plenty of American friends (mainly online), because I do.

I feel the same being from NS. In Quebec I feel just as "at home" as I do in Ontario. Yes, there's a difference in the prevailing language, but at the same time, French doesn't seem foreign to me being from Canada since we have dual consumer product labeling and customer services like ATMs, plus dual public services such as government web sites, mandatory French class in school. And one of the three TV stations we could get without cable when I was a kid was French language CBC. Somehow going to Francophone areas whether parts of NB or Quebec itself feels like a sort of... relief. I guess since in my day to day existence things feel very unbalanced because I see French so much and therefore have a familiarity with it but so rarely actually hear anyone speaking it.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I feel the same being from NS. In Quebec I feel just as "at home" as I do in Ontario. Yes, there's a difference in the prevailing language, but at the same time, French doesn't seem foreign to me...

Unless you're thoroughly fluent, this is hard to believe for me. When all the signs, all the interactions, everything from daily life around you takes place in a language that you don't fully and effortlessly master, it's pretty much impossible to feel as much as home as at home.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It kind of depends for what for me.

For getting my bearings and settled in, then sure anywhere in Canada or the US would be more user friendly for me. Getting my driver's licence, paying my taxes, etc. Registering my kids for school and activities. Buying a house. All of that for sure.

For shooting the shit about life in general over a beer or a glass of wine, though, hanging out with people from France or Wallonia or Suisse romande is often a more ''let my hair down'' type of feeling for me than with other North Americans. It's even also true of some other non-francophone Europeans for me.

Not that I feel uneasy with other Canadians or Americans, but if we are talking about where I feel like I fit in the most, I am likely more relaxed and myself with a bunch of Swedes or Finns even, than with people from Saskatchewan or Nebraska.

EDIT: Of course, I have had and still have enjoyable times and even friendships with many Canadians from all over and Americans too, but it's just that if it's a roll of the dice type of situation, I'll take my chances with a random Frenchman or Dutchman over a random Albertan or Nevadan when it comes to things ''clicking'' during the evening. And this in spite of the fact that I'd likely have more cultural reference markers in common with the latter two.

Well, it's really different IMO... Sure, if I'm rolling the dice for a social evening, I'll certainly go with the random Frenchman over the random Anglo Canadian, as it's nearly guaranteed to be way more entertaining overall... (And that's not really meant as an universal compliment for the Frenchman ) ... but it's not about feeling at home in whatever location the other person comes from, it's about having one entertaining evening. It's not the same thing at all.

[flar]

saffronleaf, get out and explore metro Detroit a bit, and you will find that municipal borders might as well be borders between different countries. Literally one side of the highway can have palpable "night menace" and the other side can be as peaceful as Canada.

And that's also possibly the major difference between Canada and the US. It's a country of extremes and we're not.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Unless you're thoroughly fluent, this is hard to believe for me. When all the signs, all the interactions, everything from daily life around you takes place in a language that you don't fully and effortlessly master, it's pretty much impossible to feel as much as home as at home.

Believe it. It's really not much of an issue.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Believe it. It's really not much of an issue.

Based on a few personal experiences (spending a few months living in countries where I wasn't fully fluent in the local language), I still find it hard to believe. The limitations on social life eventually grow annoying, and to me you can't possibly claim to fully feel at home in a place where you're restricted in so many aspects of life that are pretty much limitless at home and that you probably took for granted back home.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Based on a few personal experiences (spending a few months living in countries where I wasn't fully fluent in the local language), I still find it hard to believe. The limitations on social life eventually grow annoying, and to me you can't possibly claim to fully feel at home in a place where you're restricted in so many aspects of life that are pretty much limitless at home and that you probably took for granted back home.

I've never felt uncomfortable, except when I lived in Quebec City and got very, very tired of people asking me how long I planned to stay. Their problem, not mine.

The only non-North American spot where I've felt completely "at home" in that way was in Scotland, which is not that surprising as my mother was born there.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

... got very, very tired of people asking me how long I planned to stay.

Seeing that you now are back to living in Ontario, it seems that that question actually wasn't without merit at the time



And I wouldn't say that I felt "uncomfortable", just that I was obviously not home, even though I loved my few months in west central Germany. The fact that it wasn't home was driven home by the unescapable realization that so many basic little everyday things that are completely effortless at home weren't trivial any more there.

"uncomfortable", no, "not home", yes. "Enjoyable", of course.

Even in California when I was tired I didn't look forward to an entire evening of chatting and socialization in English. I vividly remember one exchange one afternoon, me: "I won't come, I'm too tired, I'd rather stay home"; Friend: "But all we'll do is sit and chat, it's the least tiring evening style possible!"; me: "Not to me... I'm mentally tired, I'd sooner exercise physically all evening than go through an entire evening of continuous smalltalk in English".

(Back then my English was already good enough that unilingual Americans probably assumed it was effortless, but it wasn't.)

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

When the fuck did I defend Ann Arbor as a regular American small town?

Rousseau stated that racial tension, gun violence, and a pervasive sense of menace at nighttime was the common denominator throughout the US.

Do you understand what those words mean?

Ann Arbor is clearly an outlier, but a statement as outlandish as the one Rousseau made makes no room for outliers. It is a blanket statement. And it is moronic.

Um, yeah. English comprehension time.

"Common denominator" is a metaphorical construction that allows for exceptions, because it isn't being used in a strictly mathematical sense. It doesn't allow for exceptions adding up to 30, 40, 50% or higher, but in a discussion of generalizations it is completely and entirely reasonable to characterize the US as having racial tension, gun violence and menace etc. by comparison with Canada while still allowing for neighbourhoods in places like Ann Arbor and Madison and Ithaca, etc., where those characteristic US attributes are not very prevalent.

You, erm, been watching any of the news lately?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Seeing that you now are back to living in Ontario, it seems that that question actually wasn't without merit at the time

And I wouldn't say that I felt "uncomfortable", just that I was obviously not home, even though I loved my few months in west central Germany. The fact that it wasn't home was driven home by the unescapable realization that so many basic little everyday things that are completely effortless at home weren't trivial any more there.

"uncomfortable", no, "not home", yes. "Enjoyable", of course.

Even in California when I was tired I didn't look forward to an entire evening of chatting and socialization in English. I vividly remember one exchange one afternoon, me: "I won't come, I'm too tired, I'd rather stay home"; Friend: "But all we'll do is sit and chat, it's the least tiring evening style possible!"; me: "Not to me... I'm mentally tired, I'd sooner exercise physically all evening than go through an entire evening of continuous smalltalk in English".

(Back then my English was already good enough that unilingual Americans probably assumed it was effortless, but it wasn't.)

I've mentioned it before - it was a symptom of the suffocating provincialism of the place, which was why I had to leave. Quebec City remains my least favourite city in Canada. Good for a two day visit, and that's it.

[kool maudit]

that's funny. if i were to return to canada, it's either at or near the top of my list.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Trevor3

There are differences to be sure, but I think once you leave the big cities in Canada there is a substantial hunting culture. The biggest difference is in guns and ammo, that in and of itself is a hobby in the US. In Canada it's more about the animal you're after than the weapon you use. American hunters seem to spend much of their time coddling their gun and talking about prepping for it, gun maintenance, talking about what weapon they used on a particular hunt, etc... Canadian hunters talk about the animals they shot, the place they went, the one that got away, the trip out with the guys, etc... We get a lot of American hunters who come up this way to hunt during moose season and that's the difference I've seen.

We don't have the big hunting/fishing shops, but every Canadian Tire has a large department devoted to it. Every town of a couple thousand people has a shop that deals in ammunition and hunting supplies. For instance we have a store that sells ammunition and hunting supplies, sex toys, lingerie, drug paraphanalia (bongs and such), and does tattoos and piercings, I kid you not that is one store.

I think this might speak to the population density of the country. The US is spread out all over and even rural areas are often not that far from major cities, so it's not hard to trip into Pittsburgh to go to Cabela's. Someone from Kapuskasing isn't exactly a quick drive from Winnipeg, Ottawa or Toronto. I just feel like our major cities in Canada have less influence on people in rural areas than they do in the US.

A weekend morning on NTV out here will have a bunch of hunting and fishing shows like Fish'n Canada or the Newfoundland Sportsman. There are a couple others on Eastlink Cable out of Nova Scotia as well.

Very good summary. I can only add that during hunting season in my part of the prairies is that the American hunters are cammo'd up the ying yang while Canadian hunters will just wear regular outdoor clothes.
Also there are many more hunters that live in major Canadian cities then you would initially think of. They just don't really advertise the fact that they hunt and fish.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I've mentioned it before - it was a symptom of the suffocating provincialism of the place, which was why I had to leave. Quebec City remains my least favourite city in Canada. Good for a two day visit, and that's it.

Quebec city is changing fast. Saint-Roch is among the most happening hoods in the country with old bones that makes it very urban.

[harls]

Quebec City is one of the top places I'd consider if I was going to move somewhere.

Mostly because my wife's side of the family lives there, and it would be nice to have a free babysitter once and a while.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Quebec city is changing fast. Saint-Roch is among the most happening hoods in the country with old bones that makes it very urban.

Well maybe it has been filling up with Montrealers. The Quebec City natives totally don't do it for me. Chacun a son gout, as they say.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Well, it's really different IMO... Sure, if I'm rolling the dice for a social evening, I'll certainly go with the random Frenchman over the random Anglo Canadian, as it's nearly guaranteed to be way more entertaining overall... (And that's not really meant as an universal compliment for the Frenchman ) ... but it's not about feeling at home in whatever location the other person comes from, it's about having one entertaining evening. It's not the same thing at all.

It's not just about having an entertaining evening, it's about the way conversations tend to "skew". Not for everyone of course, but again... if we're rolling the dice, I know where I am more likely to find the type of interactions I find suit me best.

This is not to say that there aren't 250,000 people in Calgary and 1 million in Toronto that I could happily have such interactions with.

Only that in Amsterdam or Lyon, the percentage of people (and therefore the likelihood of stumbling upon them) would be somewhat higher.

Add to that the bonus of not having to "explain Quebec" or francophone Canada in a (often) defensive way to fellow Canadians that usually comes up during the course of the evening with people you casually meet... and you get the picture.

At some point you just wanna have as many of your evenings as possible free of discussions about the fucking parrot that the language police allegedly wanted to have speak French and not English.