Canada's Panamerica Identity

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by esquire

Interesting. How so?

(I've never been to South America but I have visited the other places on multiple occasions... Europe is not quite as familiar as the US, but it never seemed particularly foreign other than the language part. The culture and customs are pretty recognizable for the most part, notwithstanding the occasional surprise. East Asia struck me as decidedly foreign, though.)

Probably due to my personal widespread exposure to East Asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese and so forth) in Vancouver, Toronto, and to a (much lesser) extent, Montreal. The Asian influence on urban Canada is far greater, to me at least, than that from South America. The cacophony, emotion-on-your-sleeve, openly hedonic impressions that I got from my visit to Latin America seemed very different. The built form of huge South American cities (I visited Bogota and Lima) stuck me as really very different from that of Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal, whereas Toronto and Vancouver had more than a passing resemblance to East Asian cities.

China, of course, is very different once you step outside of the business centres of Shanghai, etc.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My point is simply that at no point in history were the ancestors of today's Americans and Anglo-Canadians really all living under British rule at the same time in North America on either side of the border as if there was no border where there is one today.

Then you could say that Canada was a consolation prize for the British.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

i was once a far greater proponent of the north-south-is-the-true-north-american-axis than i now am. i think that a great deal of my former faith in this ideal had a lot to do with a certain dyspepsia regarding the canadian federal dialogue (i was sick of how canada... sounded when it talked about itself. in some ways i still am), and my aesthetic preference for certain sorts of places, for a certain visual ideal.

looking at canada both in the rear-view mirror and from a distance, i have come to feel that the differences between montreal and boston, and the similarities (or cultural continuities, really) between montreal and vancouver are both more significant than i once maintained.

this does not replace my earlier view (that basically held that north america's true divisions were the temporal, "waves of settlement" ones), but it reduces its importance. the truth is, architecture, development patterns and spatial idiosyncracies are interesting but they are simply do not play as large a role in canadian or american life as i once argued, and certain country-specific circumstances play much larger roles than i once allowed.

canadians seem... canadian. americans are clearly a linked people, but there are differences (australians are also a linked people). the differences are slightly closer to the portugal/brazil scale than they are to austria /germany, which in turn is probably closer to the more minimal spread that i once argued for.

This is really how I feel, too. Having spent six years outside of the country, I came to see how "Canadian" Canadians seemed. All this exaggerated talk of north-south connections superseding the horizontal ones just sounds like so much wishful thinking (and self-loathing, even).

Which I'm sympathetic to. I've never been a nativist. Canada's numerous faults are immediately apparent to me, and I've often looked enviously to other places for cultural inspiration. But you can't wish for something to be true when it isn't. That's just delusion.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

This is really how I feel, too. Having spent six years outside of the country, I came to see how "Canadian" Canadians seemed. All this exaggerated talk of north-south connections superseding the horizontal ones just sounds like so much wishful thinking (and self-loathing, even).
.

I think that in many parts of Canada (maybe most of them since most of our population is 200 km from the border) there is a dual pull between the cross-Canada vibe you are describing and the neighbours just across the fence. In some places one is stronger than the other, but it's rarely overwhelmingly one that totally dominates over the other. Even in a place like Windsor.

[Xelebes]

There is no supertight north south thing here. Well, unless you shift things a bit northward so that it only includes Edmonton and Calgary.

There is a loose affinity between the north and the south. Ohioans and West Virginians are rather foreign here but Texans and North Dakotans not so much.

I've been able to find some affinity with Argentinians. *shrug*

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by YoungRepublic

Boston has a 25% African-American population, a large Puerto-Rican and Dominican population, basketball culture, football culture, soul-food, etc,. This doesn't exactly scream Newfoundland to me.

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's why he didn't say that Boston was exactly like St. John's.

Big cities by their nature tend to have a good amount of things that their hinterlands don't have yet, or never will have. That doesn't prevent such a place from being "your big city".

Huh? Small cities in Massachusetts also have those things. Maybe not so many Dominicans, but the Puerto-Rican and black populations are well-represented there. And all of the U.S. is obviously shot through with its indigenous sporting culture, from the smallest village right to New York City.

The idea that Boston shares some sort of kinship with St. John's is preposterous on its face. It just isn't there, or it's so wispy and superficial that it is unappreciable to all save, perhaps, for certain wishful thinkers. The sort of people who claim that Toronto "might as well be Cleveland," for example.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

There is a loose affinity between the north and the south. Ohioans and West Virginians are rather foreign here but Texans and North Dakotans not so much.

What makes an Ohioan or WVian "rather foreign" in your eyes? What makes Texans familiar? ND, like Minnesota, is pretty much an honorary part of Canada so I won't ask about them.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think that in many parts of Canada (maybe most of them since most of our population is 200 km from the border) there is a dual pull between the cross-Canada vibe you are describing and the neighbours just across the fence. In some places one is stronger than the other, but it's rarely overwhelmingly one that totally dominates over the other. Even in a place like Windsor.

Yes I think this may be a big reason why our perceptions may vary. Where I am in Greater Halifax, it's a good 5-6 hour drive just to get to the border (depending on the driver of course) and even once you get there, there's no major population centers for another very long drive. Assuming good traffic and no border snarls, you could get all the way from downtown Vancouver to downtown Seattle before someone in downtown Halifax could even get to the border.

In fact, Google maps says directions from BC Place to the Space Needle as 229 km, 2 hours 32 mins while from Halifax Commons to Calais Maine where the border crossing is as 525 km, 5 hours 31 mins

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think that in many parts of Canada (maybe most of them since most of our population is 200 km from the border) there is a dual pull between the cross-Canada vibe you are describing and the neighbours just across the fence. In some places one is stronger than the other, but it's rarely overwhelmingly one that totally dominates over the other. Even in a place like Windsor.

Yes, even in Windsor, people will have much more in common with other Canadians than with our sister city across the river. As a region, we share some similarities, and have lots of interaction, but once we cross over to SE Michigan, it's apparent we are very different in many ways. Being Canadian trumps being neighbours when it comes to identity!

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by esquire

What makes an Ohioan or WVian "rather foreign" in your eyes? What makes Texans familiar? ND, like Minnesota, is pretty much an honorary part of Canada so I won't ask about them.

I don't know what it is. Maybe it is the industrial connection: cattle, grain and oil. Or for Ohioans and West Virginians: auto part manufacturing and coal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Huh? Small cities in Massachusetts also have those things. Maybe not so many Dominicans, but the Puerto-Rican and black populations are well-represented there. And all of the U.S. is obviously shot through with its indigenous sporting culture, from the smallest village right to New York City.

The idea that Boston shares some sort of kinship with St. John's is preposterous on its face. It just isn't there, or it's so wispy and superficial that it is unappreciable to all save, perhaps, for certain wishful thinkers. The sort of people who claim that Toronto "might as well be Cleveland," for example.

We've had at least a couple of Newfoundlanders from different horizons say this on here. Why would you think you know their relationships and affinities better than they do?

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Probably due to my personal widespread exposure to East Asian (Chinese, Korean, Japanese and so forth) in Vancouver, Toronto, and to a (much lesser) extent, Montreal. The Asian influence on urban Canada is far greater, to me at least, than that from South America. The cacophony, emotion-on-your-sleeve, openly hedonic impressions that I got from my visit to Latin America seemed very different. The built form of huge South American cities (I visited Bogota and Lima) stuck me as really very different from that of Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal, whereas Toronto and Vancouver had more than a passing resemblance to East Asian cities.

China, of course, is very different once you step outside of the business centres of Shanghai, etc.

Comments like this make me wonder how much of rural canada you understand.

[rousseau]

Breaking news: A thread entitled "Canada's Panamerican identity" has turned into a vigorous discussion about Canada's identity vis-a-vis the US.

In other news, the sky turns black at night, and water freezes at 0 degrees. Details after these messages.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We've had at least a couple of Newfoundlanders from different horizons say this on here. Why would you think you know their relationships and affinities better than they do?

Because he's from toronto and nobody can understand canda better than someone living in toronto.



EDIT: I care little where you are actually from, you could be from my backyard and I'd bet money you wouldn't know the color of my hair.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Because he's from toronto and nobody can understand canda better than someone living in toronto.

No, he's from Stratford!

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Breaking news: A thread entitled "Canada's Panamerican identity" has turned into a vigorous discussion about Canada's identity vis-a-vis the US.

On other news, the sky turns black at night, and water freezes at 0 degrees. Details after these messages.

Actually I think you've single handily steered it in that direction.

Along with 2 or 3 people, with no knowledge and more importantly no interest on the thread topic continue to hijack this thread.

[Xelebes]

Do you ever get that bloated sensation after talking about the United States? Do you not feel as fresh as you can be? Well then exhale with this lighthearted interlude and listen to One to One sing their classic. . .

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

I don't know what it is. Maybe it is the industrial connection: cattle, grain and oil. Or for Ohioans and West Virginians: auto part manufacturing and coal.

I've spent a lot of time in Alberta and Texas and I'm not sure the connection is that great. I mean, energy drives the economy in both places and agriculture is another big part so there is that similarity. And in some respects, Dallas and Houston look like supersized versions of Calgary and Edmonton. But there are significant differences too... the Hispanic presence and influence doesn't exist in Alberta, and the social conservatism that is prevalent in Texas is far more muted in Alberta. I mean, the stuff you hear in mainstream Texas might only be found in heavily Mormon towns in Southern Alberta.

North Dakota is far more like Sask, in my estimation, than Alberta.

On the other hand, the lives of the typical suburbanite in Ohio or WV is all that much different from what you get in Alberta. Culturally they're probably as close to Alberta as Texas is.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We've had at least a couple of Newfoundlanders from different horizons say this on here. Why would you think you know their relationships and affinities better than they do?

I do believe that same question has been asked of you more than a few times as well.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by esquire

I've spent a lot of time in Alberta and Texas and I'm not sure the connection is that great. I mean, energy drives the economy in both places and agriculture is another big part so there is that similarity. And in some respects, Dallas and Houston look like supersized versions of Calgary and Edmonton. But there are significant differences too... the Hispanic presence and influence doesn't exist in Alberta, and the social conservatism that is prevalent in Texas is far more muted in Alberta. I mean, the stuff you hear in mainstream Texas might only be found in heavily Mormon towns in Southern Alberta.

North Dakota is far more like Sask, in my estimation, than Alberta.

On the other hand, the lives of the typical suburbanite in Ohio or WV is all that much different from what you get in Alberta. Culturally they're probably as close to Alberta as Texas is.

I'm not saying Alberta could form a national unit with Texas, I'm just saying that Texans have a sense of familiarity with Alberta. The people I have met from Ohio do not have that familiarity.