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  #3101  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 2:51 AM
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  #3102  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
It's pretty weird to hear someone describe Toronto as being "a very puritanical and conservative city" considering it's one of the most socially liberal major cities on the planet.
I find Montreal to be more liberal though, not wanting to start a city vs city drama.
     
     
  #3103  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 2:56 PM
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I find Montreal to be more liberal though, not wanting to start a city vs city drama.
Canada is one of the most socially liberal countries on earth, so Toronto can be one of the top cities in that regard without exceeding Montreal.
     
     
  #3104  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
It's pretty weird to hear someone describe Toronto as being "a very puritanical and conservative city" considering it's one of the most socially liberal major cities on the planet.
It's different though. Toronto liberalism, and more generally English Canada liberalism, reflects a sort of perfunctory politeness that helps keep a cold distance between individuals. It's... you do your thing, while I disapprove of you in my head, and air out my grievances in kitchen table discussions at home. It's a sort of "don't say anything if you don't have anything good to say" kind of tolerance, and that tolerance is largely limited to the public realm.

Americans are far friendlier and more open with their thoughts -- which, of course, occasionally may be intolerant.

edit -- And then, of course, you have downright puritanical policies. Alcohol can only be sold by government stores (—?). Extreme nanny state tobacco regulations. Patios serving alcohol must be like cages so that there is no interaction with the public, thereby destroying a lot of what should be fun street culture. And many more things, I'm sure.
     
     
  #3105  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 3:22 PM
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I find Montreal very liberal, just from my experience.
     
     
  #3106  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 3:24 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
It's different though. Toronto liberalism, and more generally English Canada liberalism, reflects a sort of perfunctory politeness that helps keep a cold distance between individuals. It's... you do your thing, while I disapprove of you in my head, and air out my grievances in kitchen table discussions at home. It's a sort of "don't say anything if you don't have anything good to say" kind of tolerance, and that tolerance is largely limited to the public realm.

Americans are far friendlier and more open with their thoughts -- which, of course, occasionally may be intolerant.

edit -- And then, of course, you have downright puritanical policies. Alcohol can only be sold by government stores (—?). Extreme nanny state tobacco regulations. Patios serving alcohol must be like cages so that there is no interaction with the public, thereby destroying a lot of what should be fun street culture. And many more things, I'm sure.
I would have to disagree there. Yes, we're more polite about things we disapprove of, but we also disapprove of fewer things, partly because we're more secular but also we have less of the fear based politics which really breeds intolerance.
     
     
  #3107  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 3:54 PM
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  #3108  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 3:56 PM
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Cool shot.
     
     
  #3109  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 4:29 PM
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1501 McGill College's light scheme is in honour of Jean Béliveau.


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  #3110  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 4:57 PM
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The 1501 would have been really iconic at 200-250m. Would have made for a tallest to be proud of.
     
     
  #3112  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Americans are far friendlier and more open with their thoughts -- which, of course, occasionally may be intolerant.
This superficial friendliness and "homie culture" is part of what I hate about Americans. Being "open with your thoughts" is invariably a marker of the banal self-importance and entitlement Americans have that grate on people around the world. It's irritating and off-putting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
edit -- And then, of course, you have downright puritanical policies. Alcohol can only be sold by government stores (—?). Extreme nanny state tobacco regulations. Patios serving alcohol must be like cages so that there is no interaction with the public, thereby destroying a lot of what should be fun street culture. And many more things, I'm sure.
Lots of American jurisdictions have draconian laws and attitudes to various substances, too. Not everywhere is Las Vegas. It doesn't get more nanny state than the attempt to ban or limit the size of soft drinks in New York City.

The laws in Ontario (and presumably the rest of Canada outside of Quebec) are the remnants of an earlier puritanical era, and only feel repressive in a comparative sense. They don't really represent the direct sort of oppression that would inspire an uprising because you can still drink as much as you want, even if you're not allowed to stroll down the street with a drink in your hand.

But we're completely secular now, and want more out of our cities than the strictly utilitarian and pragmatic, meaning that we are looking elsewhere to paragons of urban culture to see how they do things differently. So while you're not strictly allowed to drink alcohol in public, it is commonplace in various downtown parks in Toronto anyway, and even in Stratford you can have a bottle of wine with your picnic along the lake without raising any eyebrows, much less arousing the displeasure of the police. Granted, it's a class thing: there's no way a posse of farm boys could pull up in their pickup trucks stacked with cases of Budweiser with the intention of getting hammered in a public park around here (and thank gawd for that--they do it on their farms anyway--rural Ontario's dirty secret is that drinking and driving is still rife out on the farm).

At some point the government monopolies on the sale of alcohol, not to mention the ridiculous monopoly handed by the government to a private consortium in the form of the Beer Store, have to collapse under the weight of their own absurdity. But it will take a while, because it's more an irritation than a true form of oppression. And to be honest, you know you've got it comparatively good in a global sense if, when casting around for things to protest against, you come up with the LCBO.
     
     
  #3113  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
It's pretty weird to hear someone describe Toronto as being "a very puritanical and conservative city" considering it's one of the most socially liberal major cities on the planet.

It's just Cal being dumb. Not the first time he's said that. However, socially liberal or not, there is a certain cultural conservatism here - which is completely separate from social/political liberalism or conservatism. There are plenty of colourful, boisterous, yet traditionalist societies out there (like the Middle East), just as there are other quiet, taciturn, but free & open societies (Scandinavia). None of these things are inherently opposed.

Canadians are a reserved, pragmatic sort of people. Not necessarily a bad thing - see Rousseau's characterization for why the opposite isn't always desirable either. But it just makes for the sort of culture that's more preferential to clean, minimal, understated buildings than it is to daring, grandiose architectural statements. Still, that's a generalization. There's enough room in a place like Toronto for a bit of everything.
     
     
  #3114  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2014, 10:45 PM
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An old one but good one


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  #3115  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 12:41 AM
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The 1501 would have been really iconic at 200-250m. Would have made for a tallest to be proud of.
Now now we don't want these kinds of dirty thoughts around these parts! Nothing taller than the glorious mountain, remember?
     
     
  #3116  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 12:49 AM
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An old one but good one

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I had this one as my wallpaper for a while:


Calgary sunrise by Joel_S1, on Flickr
     
     
  #3117  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 2:23 AM
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  #3118  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 3:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
It's different though. Toronto liberalism, and more generally English Canada liberalism, reflects a sort of perfunctory politeness that helps keep a cold distance between individuals. It's... you do your thing, while I disapprove of you in my head, and air out my grievances in kitchen table discussions at home. It's a sort of "don't say anything if you don't have anything good to say" kind of tolerance, and that tolerance is largely limited to the public realm.

Americans are far friendlier and more open with their thoughts -- which, of course, occasionally may be intolerant.
I think you're absolutely right. And this trait that Americans have can often lead to conversations that, for many Canadians, are a bit uncomfortable. But these conservations can also be much more satisfying and compelling too.

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  #3119  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 3:44 AM
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I'm having a hard time envisioning these traits leading to more compelling and satisfying conversations. Maybe more compelling and satisfying to you personally, but not to people in general.
     
     
  #3120  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 3:55 AM
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I'm having a hard time envisioning these traits leading to more compelling and satisfying conversations. Maybe more compelling and satisfying to you personally, but not to people in general.
You really have that hard a time imagining that many people might find earnest and frank discussions where people freely speak their minds more fulfilling than those where people hold back for fear of offending or seeming too opinionated?
     
     
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