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  #10541  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 1:36 PM
TBone7281 TBone7281 is offline
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They have been mucking around with the site for a month or two now. I take our dog to The Dog Stop right across the street from the site a day or two a week so I've been watching for any significant activity. They have a sort of ditch dug on the Smallman side of the lot already, I assume for some utility work. (There have been various utility trucks there the last couple weeks.) Maybe they are finally going to start digging the foundation.
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  #10542  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 2:40 PM
themaguffin themaguffin is offline
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I don't know given the many frustrating things that have happened (or will happen) in the city. I felt this one as long done, but I don't think it looks terrible. I find everything about the August Wilson center to be such a train wreck that won't end (maybe it's finally ending) and North Shore mostly sucks and I feel whatever happens near Station Square - if ever, will be a major wasted opportunity for decent size residential that won't block any NIMBY's precious views and of course the arena development....
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  #10543  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 3:02 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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On the other hand there are some good things happening too. PMC is doing great projects all over the place. These days I am mostly happy with what is happening in the South Side Works. Lots of good things are happening in East Liberty. Lots of good things are happening in the Strip, although it remains to be seen what Buncher does (but the last news I saw is they were maybe going to start out with a decent project). Some great stuff is happening in Oakland. If you ignore historic preservation issues, PNC Tower is very impressive, and Oxford's planned tower isn't bad. And so on.

Thinking about all this, I believe there is a pretty obvious common denominator. Not to sound like a raving libertarian, but where there is competitive bidding, or at least for-profit developers taking the lead, things are going pretty well (holding aside historic preservation issues at least, about which for-profit developers often lack interest--PMC is an exception, and maybe that is in part because they are not homegrown). But where development is being driven by large, politically-connected entities that are either nonprofit or have ulterior motives (like the sports teams), then usually crap is happening.
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  #10544  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
OK, so in this one I have done a couple things:



First, I highlighted in gray major elements that are purely ornamental. Again, you have the ornamental wall they are adding to the side of the CVS, and the ornamental arcade. This time I also included the heavy arches over empty space on the corner of the main theater complex--that is another purely ornamental element they are trying to emphasize, in order to create the illusion of a grander building than they are actually planning.

Second, I also did my best to sketch in red where the historic buildings are located. The source image I used is this Google streetview:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4395794,...3m4!1e1!3m2!1sl3AG7nD_Kzua1sM7lmneBw!2e0

Again, the point here is just to emphasize that when you deduct all the purely ornamental stuff, and also deduct the buildings they are destroying, they are actually adding far less new substantial stuff than these images are trying to make you believe.
Ok nice work. Now photoshop the ornamental spires from the top of PPG and we are left with *gasp* a rectangular, forgettable box. I can see what PPG is TRYING to make us believe!
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  #10545  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 3:28 PM
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My sarcastic (and not intended to be malicious) point being, the architectural details are what make buildings what they are so I don't understand this exercise.
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  #10546  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 3:28 PM
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My two cents on the new Point Park building:

As with everyone else, I think it's better than I expected. Certainly the use of the facades is substantially better than what Walnut Capital has proposed so far in East Liberty. But it looks like only one of them will be used for anything other than a glorified wall hanging.

I do not think the project has enough vertical density of course, which is a common issue with anything the nonprofits touch in Downtown. I wouldn't say, however, it's suburban in structure. It obeys some of the rules of urban design, such continuing the street wall, much better than say the new PNC tower everyone is still jizzing in their pants over. I don't see any parking lots, which let's not forget, 2/3rds of the space in question currently is. Even if the space is replaced by courtyards which don't actually have vertical density, things like the catwalk hide this lack of density from the street, making it less disagreeable.

Is this the sort of density I'd like to have here? No. If historic buildings are demolished, I would like to see something much denser put in their place. But I think it's better than we had hope of getting in the past. A sign that zoning isn't a rubber stamp any longer, and at least giving minimal pushback to developers.
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  #10547  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 3:31 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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Originally Posted by themaguffin View Post
... and I feel whatever happens near Station Square - if ever, will be a major wasted opportunity for decent size residential that won't block any NIMBY's precious views...
Station Square development is a Forest City project... overall, they do things right and it won't be a wasted opportunity. At least not if I have anything to say about it -- not that I have any pull at all, but I am working on the project. I have a good feeling about it.

And thankfully, there are not any NIMBY's views to block!
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  #10548  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 3:35 PM
Found5dollar Found5dollar is offline
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Ok, as the only theater practitioner here, and likely the only board member that has actually advised on a theater construction project before, I have to chime in to correct some of the gross mischaracterizations that are being leveled against the Point Park Playhouse. I have not made my mind up if this plan is good or bad yet, i am waiting to see the interior floor plans for that, but alot of the knee jerk "I'ts anti urban!" and "its just a pile of ornament!" are completely inappropriate.

First of all, a well programed theater is by definition "urban". Contrary to popular belief, an urban environment is not defined by tall buildings. Urban space is human scaled, that's it. It is designed so that the human experience rises above all other uses. This does not exclude tall buildings as they bring more density and with more density come more places in a smaller foot print, but just as important as density is respite space. A theater can be both dense and a place of respite. When the crowds rush in 7 times a week they create an active environment and draw hundreds of people to a part of town they never would go to otherwise. Besides that they can, if well programed, become a quite place to step out of the daily grind for small concerts, talks, lunches, etc. during other hours.

Theaters are inherently short buildings. Even in New York City, there is only one Broadway theater that does not stand alone, all the rest are about 1-3 stories tall. I don't see anyone bemoaning the fact that all that valuable land in NYC right next to other skyscrapers isn't being used for tall buildings. Because of the large interior open spaces that theaters need, engineering many extra floors ontop of them can become quite cost prohibitive. For more local examples look at the Benedum, Byam, or Heinz Hall. A well designed and acoustically sound theater is rarely able to mix with additional uses. I know that at CMU they have major issues with the Chosky theater having one floor of classrooms above it. They have to close down bathrooms and classrooms anytime a show is happening as it creates noise in the theater spaces.

I take special issue with the claims that the courtyard is problematic. This courtyard, as a theater-goer and theater-maker, is the major selling point for this space. The biggest issue with urban theaters is the crowds on the sidewalk. When the doors open, at intermission, and when the play is over sidewalks become unnavigable because they are not designed for that many people at once. This courtyard will define another space where audience can mingle and spread out so that this crush is mitigated. The coffee shop they talk about on the second level will do the same thing. The "catwalk" as everyone is calling it is also a really great use of space in my book. First of all it defines the courtyard and puts a barrier between the street and the open space. this will create a usable area that the noise from the street will be deadened in. This space can now be used for small concerts or similar small scale gatherings. The arcade under the "catwalk" now gives a covered place for ticket takes or ushers to stand in for events in the courtyard. It is an incredibly clever way to basically create and additional theater space.

In terms of "breaking the streetwall" that everyone is worried about, this does not do it. The front of the arcade is still inline with the contextual front of buildings all along the street. It creates no additional barriers for people walking along the sidewalk. This arcade is "place making" at its finest and simplest. It keeps the historic view corridor open, but allows a space for people that want to get out of the crowds to go. I would argue that this one story arcade does more for preserving an actual streetwall than Walnut on Penn does with its 6 story parking garage. This courtyard gives people a new destination on the street and more of a reason to be there, as opposed to the huge wall in east liberty that looks nice but is completely solid and devoid of any storefronts. A streetwall is not just a continuation of facades, it is how we interact with a city. It needs to be permeable, varied, and create destinations.

As far as what a theater on this site could be, I think the exterior of the building is incredibly contextual, works well at saving and integrating the upper facades of the buildings they are tearing down, and creates a new destination place that this part of downtown is lacking. I am still holding out to see the floor plans to make my final verdict, but the architects seem to be very conscious of what this space can and should be.
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  #10549  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 3:40 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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Originally Posted by Austinlee View Post
My sarcastic (and not intended to be malicious) point being, the architectural details are what make buildings what they are so I don't understand this exercise.
So why destroy very high-quality architectural details for concrete forms that attempt to mimic the lost streetwall?

Why can't this serve as a grand entrance to the theater, with the facades remaining in place, in their historical, urban context?


Why should they not be integrated into this? In historical context with the adjacent Stock Exchange building?

Last edited by Private Dick; Dec 5, 2014 at 4:21 PM.
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  #10550  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 3:55 PM
Found5dollar Found5dollar is offline
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So why destroy very high-quality architectural details for concrete forms that attempt to mimic the lost streetwall?

Why can't this serve as a grand entrance to the theater, with the facades remaining in place, in their historical, urban context?
Because modernism already destroyed the bottom half of those facades.

There is no grand entrance left.

A person walking into a building under these historic facades would only experience what is on the first floor, they might not even notice that the building had anything above that. The way the playhouse is dealing with the facades, especially the one they are moving to the back of the 2nd level of the courtyard, brings them closer to eye level so more people will be able to experience and interact with the ornament, as opposed to just viewing it from across the street.
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  #10551  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 4:16 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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Because modernism already destroyed the bottom half of those facades.

There is no grand entrance left.

A person walking into a building under these historic facades would only experience what is on the first floor, they might not even notice that the building had anything above that. The way the playhouse is dealing with the facades, especially the one they are moving to the back of the 2nd level of the courtyard, brings them closer to eye level so more people will be able to experience and interact with the ornament, as opposed to just viewing it from across the street.
I don't think you're getting it. There was no "grand entrance" to begin with. The entrance incorporating those facades in place would have to be created and integrated into the overall structure. This is not uncommon, and provides a far better result than bolting them onto walls in architectural condescension as courtyard "ornament".

The rest of what you write about people not noticing what could be the building's main entrance and "face" is a tremendous amount of bullcrap.
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  #10552  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 4:33 PM
Found5dollar Found5dollar is offline
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a tremendous amount of bullcrap.
Responding to a reasoned argument so dismissively does not make anyone view your points as more valid.

As a pedestrian we never interact with any part of a facade above the first floor of a structure, unless there is a balcony or other kind of raised area. These three facades have already had their first floor destroyed. Just look at the above picture, no one standing next to the building can see the remaining detail. There is nothing to be saved that a person on the street interacts with. for a facadectomy, which is what you are rallying for, to work there has to be a complete facade to save that can remain in place while another structure is built behind it. To do what you are suggesting they would still have to tear the entire building down as there are no structural parts of a facade remaining under the second floor.They would still be just tacking on the facade pieces to walls in the exact same way they are in the current plan, just in a different place.

If we have a choice, I would prefer to be able to get closer to this architectural detail if it has to be removed anyway.
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  #10553  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TBone7281 View Post
They have been mucking around with the site for a month or two now. I take our dog to The Dog Stop right across the street from the site a day or two a week so I've been watching for any significant activity. They have a sort of ditch dug on the Smallman side of the lot already, I assume for some utility work. (There have been various utility trucks there the last couple weeks.) Maybe they are finally going to start digging the foundation.
At the opposite end of the spectrum of Point Park's weak project...

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/bl...s-thinking-bigger-yet-for-its-three.html


Quote:
Oxford is thinking bigger yet for its Three Crossings project in the Strip

Dec 5, 2014, 11:30am EST

A development project that started out as a multifamily project in the Strip District may again be revised for more ambitious plans.

In its press announcement for the groundbreaking for its new mixed-use Three Crossings, Oxford indicates the development could see as much as 375,000 square feet of office space along with the 300-unit apartment complex in the works.

That's a substantial increase over the 250,000 square feet of office space Oxford previously had added to the development plan. In May, the Urban Redevelopment Authority of Pittsburgh voted to apply for grant funding to build an accompanying multimodal parking facility for Three Crossings, in order to support the new additional office space added to the project.

Oxford indicates the project could see "up to 375,000 square feet of office space," suggesting the company is still working to make a final decision on the scale of the offices at Three Crossings.

If the company builds out to that maximum, Oxford would have more office space at Three Crossings than can be found in the Frick Building and the Koppers Building downtown.

...
That's 125k more sq ft of office space than the new US Steel HQ! Go Oxford Go Oxford Go!

Last edited by Evergrey; Dec 5, 2014 at 4:59 PM.
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  #10554  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 4:48 PM
themaguffin themaguffin is offline
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On the other hand there are some good things happening too. PMC is doing great projects all over the place. These days I am mostly happy with what is happening in the South Side Works. Lots of good things are happening in East Liberty. Lots of good things are happening in the Strip, although it remains to be seen what Buncher does (but the last news I saw is they were maybe going to start out with a decent project). Some great stuff is happening in Oakland. If you ignore historic preservation issues, PNC Tower is very impressive, and Oxford's planned tower isn't bad. And so on.
and that is true. I don't mean to be dismissive of that. Really, I was trying to convey where it ranked for me in the disappointing list.


Quote:
Station Square development is a Forest City project... overall, they do things right and it won't be a wasted opportunity. At least not if I have anything to say about it -- not that I have any pull at all, but I am working on the project. I have a good feeling about it.

And thankfully, there are not any NIMBY's views to block!
That's good to hear.
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  #10555  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 4:56 PM
designer3d712 designer3d712 is offline
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Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
Station Square development is a Forest City project... overall, they do things right and it won't be a wasted opportunity. At least not if I have anything to say about it -- not that I have any pull at all, but I am working on the project. I have a good feeling about it.

And thankfully, there are not any NIMBY's views to block!
Quote:
Forest City will present plans for the development Tuesday evening at the Sheraton Station Square Hotel.
Anything you can share with us?
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  #10556  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 5:04 PM
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Austinlee Austinlee is offline
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Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
So why destroy very high-quality architectural details for concrete forms that attempt to mimic the lost streetwall?

Why can't this serve as a grand entrance to the theater, with the facades remaining in place, in their historical, urban context?


Why should they not be integrated into this? In historical context with the adjacent Stock Exchange building?
Sorry, didn't know we were still having that discussion from 38 pages ago. I thought we were commenting on reality.
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  #10557  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 5:05 PM
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I took this picture a few months ago while sitting in traffic. I love this angle of the burgh.

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  #10558  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 5:06 PM
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I still have hopes that Riverparc will be reborn. I may even live there someday if it comes back.
Anyway, I found this picture of a new development in Malmo, Sweden and thought this is probably what Riverparc would look like at pedestrian level. I love it.

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  #10559  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 5:07 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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Responding to a reasoned argument so dismissively does not make anyone view your points as more valid.

As a pedestrian we never interact with any part of a facade above the first floor of a structure, unless there is a balcony or other kind of raised area. These three facades have already had their first floor destroyed. Just look at the above picture, no one standing next to the building can see the remaining detail. There is nothing to be saved that a person on the street interacts with. for a facadectomy, which is what you are rallying for, to work there has to be a complete facade to save that can remain in place while another structure is built behind it. To do what you are suggesting they would still have to tear the entire building down as there are no structural parts of a facade remaining under the second floor.They would still be just tacking on the facade pieces to walls in the exact same way they are in the current plan, just in a different place.

If we have a choice, I would prefer to be able to get closer to this architectural detail if it has to be removed anyway.
I wouldn't have called it bullcrap if it was a 'reasoned argument'. Going by your line of reason then... Why should Point Park even bother designing their new building with any of those 6 tall windows on the upper levels of the facade? No one is going to "interact" with it anyway, right? They should just make it a blank brick face.

Street-level storefronts change multiple times over the lifespan of an old commercial building. What you're suggesting that "to work there has to be a complete facade to save that can remain in place while another structure is built behind it" is simply false. Street-level fronts are built all the time beneath well-preserved upper floor facades (in fact, that is usually the procedure in construction since the street-level fronts do change so much over the decades). It would not be "just tacking on facade pieces to the walls". That is simply incorrect. Historical context is actually maintained with restoration and integration into the new construction. It is often done and done very well.

You are basing your "reasoned argument" on a false premise.
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  #10560  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2014, 5:07 PM
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Pittsburgh doing it's best Tokyo impression.


Credit: Dave DiCello Photography
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