Winnipeg Construction VIII

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Yeah the government should force TNSE to lower their beer and hotdog prices cause you were extored into underwriting the return of the league due to a lack of a referendum. I don't remember a referendum on subsidizing the IKEA coming to the city. I was extorted into subsidizing that without a referendum. Government should force them to lower their prices. Royal Winnipeg Ballet received government money without referendum. Extortion!!!!!!!!!!!!!


What utter nonsense.

Speaking of nonsense.

Look children, if you can't understand the nuance, then you can't have the discussion. Nobody once said anything about forcing the price of beer down except you and a couple of other dim-witted posters. And I understand that's because you can't easily grasp that concept, but it's not something that was ever up for discussion.

Subsidizing the ballet - a not-for-profit arts organization - couldn't be any more of a false equivalency, regardless of your incapacity to understand it.

But when P.T. Barnum made the remark that nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people, he was referring to people like you. And I'm happy to see you're impressed with yourself as part of this group because, like the Chipmans, I rely on your ignorance too...

If you're so upset about IKEA being subsidized, perhaps you should have made an effort to point that out to your councilor. But since it's evident you're not qualified to have the discussion, I'm not surprised you didn't.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Speaking of nonsense.

Look children, if you can't understand the nuance, then you can't have the discussion. Nobody once said anything about forcing the price of beer down except you and a couple of other dim-witted posters. And I understand that's because you can easily grasp that concept, but it's not something that was ever up for discussion.

Subsidizing the ballet - a not-for-profit arts organization - couldn't be any more of a false equivalency, regardless of your incapacity to understand it.

But when P.T. Barnum made the remark that nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people, he was referring to people like you. And I'm happy to see you're impressed with yourself as part of this group because, like the Chipmans, I rely on your ignorance too...

If you're so upset about IKEA being subsidized, perhaps you should have made an effort to point that out to your councilor. But since it's evident you're not qualified to have the discussion, I'm not surprised you didn't.

Point out to my councillor? A post ago you were saying it was extortion cause you weren't offered a referendum. Why can't I be equally outraged for the lack of a referendum? For someone who seems to think they are of superior intellect you sure resort to a lot of ad hominem arguing when your points fall flat.

Your constant negativity has turned into hostility on theses boards. I'm adding you to my ignore list and suggest others who are sick of your nonsense to do likewise. Cause Internet bullies get butt hurt when they don't get a rise out of people.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Point out to my councillor? A post ago you were saying it was extortion cause you weren't offered a referendum. Why can't I be equally outraged for the lack of a referendum? For someone who seems to think they are of superior intellect you sure resort to a lot of ad hominem arguing when your points fall flat.

Your constant negativity has turned into hostility on theses boards. I'm adding you to my ignore list and suggest others who are sick of your nonsense to do likewise. Cause Internet bullies get butt hurt when they don't get a rise out of people.

I'm sorry that you can't defend your points. I referred to a referendum because people like you want to be selective about what constitutes a free market. You claim we're a bunch of socialists when (you pretend) we asked to have beer prices lowered - which we didn't - but then you have no problem when the corporation gets the welfare. That's called cognitive dissonance. I'm laughing at you because you can't understand that concept.

You're offended and butthurt because you can't defend a subsidy you happen to prefer. Then you try to pretend like everybody is just full of nonsense because they don't see it your way.

By all means put me on your ignore list. If you were worth speaking to, you'd have made a point by now. As such, you've just resorted to calling me a bully and adding as many exclamation points to your posts in an effort to try and demean me. But then it didn't work.

[Gadzookz]

Simplicity, your pessimistic crap you pollute this forum with is completely obnoxious and disgusting. It must be tough going through life being as sickeningly negative as you. Not to mention the self righteousness you continue to spew is absolutely brutal.. Do something better with your spare time than ripping on countless people and the city of Winnipeg unwarrently.. Jesus Christ..

[Riverman]

I think the issue here is that for so long we have heard how swimmingly everything is going here while the entire province circles the drain. So much sunshine has been blown you know where by this government that people actually start to believe it.

Then someone honest comes along and states a few unpleasant facts and the result is everyone shits themselves because they are not conditioned to handle the truth.

Call it what you want but all I see is an honest, well thought out opinion. And I'm neutral, I don't give a damn about the Jets one way or the other.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Gadzookz

Simplicity, your pessimistic crap you pollute this forum with is completely obnoxious and disgusting. It must be tough going through life being as sickeningly negative as you. Not to mention the self righteousness you continue to spew is absolutely brutal.. Do something better with your spare time than ripping on countless people and the city of Winnipeg unwarrently.. Jesus Christ..

You haven't made a worthwhile post on this forum that I can remember.

I just love when people with nothing to contribute call others out on 'negativity' like somehow that contribution was more meaningful or even remotely informative. If it were up to you, this forum would be a series of poorly articulated, misspelled, single-line observations from the mind of what appears to be a child. And then we'd all be dumber for it.

But thanks for that enlightening comment. You can bet I take your opinion very seriously...

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

You haven't made a worthwhile post on this forum that I can remember.

I just love when people with nothing to contribute call others out on 'negativity' like somehow that contribution was more meaningful or even remotely informative. If it were up to you, this forum would be a series of poorly articulated, misspelled, single-line observations from the mind of what appears to be a child. And then we'd all be dumber for it.

But thanks for that enlightening comment. You can bet I take your opinion very seriously...

Speaking of childish, your over the top effort to insult accounts for a good portion of why people would have an issue (and not just the truth you speak). I get it, over exaggerate to make a point. I'm willing to listen to all sides, but if someone has to peel away the spew, then why bother?

Just something to think about, this isn't a, "Hey, f*ck you" post.

[1ajs]

guys chill out

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by hexrae

Speaking of childish, your over the top effort to insult accounts for a good portion of why people would have an issue (and not just the truth you speak). I get it, over exaggerate to make a point. I'm willing to listen to all sides, but if someone has to peel away the spew, then why bother?

Just something to think about, this isn't a, "Hey, f*ck you" post.

Nobody's over-exaggerating. I made a point a hundred posts ago about the huge amount of subsidy the Chipman family receives. Because some people take it personally that what they think is theirhockey team - which is really a childish concept - is being slighted, they want to turn this into an argument nobody was ever having. And then they get emotional and defensive because that's how little kids react. Making stupid, made-up claims that another poster and I want the government to step in and regulate beer prices is some fictitious construct. And trying to compare a privately-owned, extremely profitable sports team to the RWB is even more ignorant.

This started with a throwaway comment about the obnoxious gouging of the fans over beer and ticket prices in light of the fact that the city is already unnecessarily lining the pockets of those who need it the least for something that benefits next to nobody. Somehow it turned into somebody defending it by claiming they aren't in favour of IKEA being subsidized. What one has to do with the other, I'll never know.

If somebody wants to tell me how they feel about their position relative to mine by driving it home with as many exclamation points as they peck out, I'm happy to let them know about mine. If it turns out their position is indefensible because they lack the capacity to make the argument, that isn't my problem.

I don't espouse to be telling the 'truth'. But I can guarantee that the truth isn't that the Chipman's just toiled away in their basements working so hard that one day the Jets manifested, saving Winnipeg from the brink. If that's what people want to believe, then I feel sorry for them because they're that sucker born every minute.

[rrskylar]

Really enjoyed the last two pages of posts, thread is alive again! Simplicity, Biguc and River

Winnipeg Construction thread had been stale for months.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Look children, if you can't understand the nuance, then you can't have the discussion. Nobody once said anything about forcing the price of beer down except you and a couple of other dim-witted posters. And I understand that's because you can't easily grasp that concept, but it's not something that was ever up for discussion.

My point about how beer prices is lowered on certain nights now is more pointing out the facts of the issue. The reality is if people were not buying $10 beers from TNSE in large enough quantities something would be changed.

As for the subsidy that is being given to TNSE for facilitating the city having a team I think the issue goes deeper than just the amount of money and who is receiving it. For better or worse having the NHL team play in an arena in downtown is in large part driving redevelopment, at least in the SHED. The block that will be home to CentrePoint sat largely vacant with some of the buildings even being burnt out shells for more than 30 years. The lot on which SoPo is proposed has been a surface lot at least that long too. If you want to call out the subsidy that is going to TNSE you should also be looking at the funding the CentreVenture and similar groups are receiving in the city and determine where the best bang for the buck is.

People complaining about beer prices might not be structuring their arguments the best but they are really questioning how TNSE is being funded from the average citizen which is a good place to be starting.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by CoryB

My point about how beer prices is lowered on certain nights now is more pointing out the facts of the issue. The reality is if people were not buying $10 beers from TNSE in large enough quantities something would be changed.

As for the subsidy that is being given to TNSE for facilitating the city having a team I think the issue goes deeper than just the amount of money and who is receiving it. For better or worse having the NHL team play in an arena in downtown is in large part driving redevelopment, at least in the SHED. The block that will be home to CentrePoint sat largely vacant with some of the buildings even being burnt out shells for more than 30 years. The lot on which SoPo is proposed has been a surface lot at least that long too. If you want to call out the subsidy that is going to TNSE you should also be looking at the funding the CentreVenture and similar groups are receiving in the city and determine where the best bang for the buck is.

People complaining about beer prices might not be structuring their arguments the best but they are really questioning how TNSE is being funded from the average citizen which is a good place to be starting.

The thing is, I don't care what they charge for beer. They could charge $50/ pint and I wouldn't care. If that's the market clearing price, then that's the market clearing price. My throwaway comment was about the price-gouging that happens in light of the fact that they're gouging the very people who already pay a large portion of their bills even though they're highly profitable.

And the SHED has to be looked at in the context of what's happening elsewhere. We've already acknowledged that anything that ends up in the SHED is just another massive vacancy elsewhere, except that these new rents are essentially property tax free. This isn't good for the city. New development that kills off the productive taxation capacity of another is not beneficial. It's just a shiny new building where the rents roll up to the Chipman's and the citizens subsidize the costs. Again. Are we noticing a trend here? So to your point about CentreVenture, it should have disbanded before it ever got off the ground. It's never once done anything beneficial. All it's done is act as the defacto development arm that attaches the Chipman family and the city of Winnipeg and throw money at some East Exchange development that will be costing the city money for the next twenty years. Mark Chipman sits on the board. His brother-in-law ran it. It's not even a secret.

And the argument that might be used here to counter mine is that they're out taking the risk and that's why we subsidize them. And normally, that's my argument because it can't be discounted. But that's not the case here either. Here, we have governments shuffling around departments and steering land on favourable terms to one family in the interests of doing away with that risk. So they get risk free anchor tenants, land essentially given to them by MPI, and now they're going to get huge taxation subsidies? What for? This is the one example of downtown development that doesn't need those subsidies because something like the MLCC acts as a backdoor subsidy anyway.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by biguc

If they lowered the price people would buy more beer.

And I don't know why some of you are taking this as such a black and white issue--you act as though Esquire and Simplicity are raising a posse to run the Chipmans out of town, despite them repeatedly saying that isn't the case.

If you have no problem with millionaires receiving a condition-free annual subisidy of four million dollars in perpetuity, then I submit you as exhibit A in why this province is fucking broke.


Further to your point: "Oh I get it. They don't work hard. Its just taxpayer subsidies. Thats why they are wealthy and successful. "

If you had bothered to actually read Simplicity's post you would have read:

"Joe Q. Public can't walk into CentreVenture's office and demand millions upon millions in subsidy from the civic taxpayer no matter how good his idea is and who is willing to support him. First you need to have very wealthy and connected friends who you can stock the board with, then you need to install your inept, feckless brother-in-law as the CEO who you can push around, and then you need to ensure you're greasing the mayor and administration so nobody complains too loudly. "


Stop acting like a child, again. And you're enthusiastically supporting a poster (Bluenote) who's had past posts deleted because he's a virulent racist. Dipshits of a feather.

If the condition of the company taking the financial risk of bringing a team to Winnipeg and everything that goes with it, is $4 million a year which is far less than the direct/indirect economic return, then it's a no brainer.

If I give you $100 a year forever and you agree to spend $200 a year at my shop forever, I think I'm okay with that.

I know thats simple, but I just dont see the issue with it. Sure, we can say well, where is the risk when True North makes a ton of cash, they didnt need the subsidy. But who's to say 20 years from now, they wouldnt need it? The company spent a massive amount of money which indirectly invested in the community. If they wanted the government to put a little skin in the game, I have no issue with it. The $4 million gets returned several times over.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

If you're too inept to have the conversation, then just bow out. You don't need to embarrass yourself any further on the way out.

You can yell louder than me so I guess your opinion is right. Even when its wrong.

At least I can see your point. I just think it's wrong.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

You don't have any issues with it because, as you've demonstrated, it's over you're head.

You're bereft on this issue. You're exactly the stupidity they play to, so I'll congratulate you on that, I guess. But if I were you and I found out that I was being taken, I'd be embarrassed to show my ass. Not you. You're proud of it.

Im more of a lurker to this site than a contributor. But I love it. Is this the kind of piece of shit asshole that posts here? Insulting posters? I'd assume you're a lefty hipster d bag by your arrogance but I wouldnt want to insult lefty hipsters.

I'll go away now. Enjoyed the site while it lasted. Too easy to exchange insults with idiots.

To the vast majority of you here that routinely fill my day with fantastic information and mature discussion, keep up the good work. See ya around.

Edit to add: Simplicity is an apt name for someone who is clearly exactly what he accuses others of being: a simpleton. Except he's a negative simpleton. He's the kind of jerk that used to come into my place of business, impress everyone with his greatness and get his teeth knocked out. The only difference being he's a common internet tough guy who wouldnt even open his mouth if in the company of most people here. I'd call him a cowardly c*nt but I probably cant say that.

peace out.

[esquire]

I think it's an interesting discussion with valid points to be made on either side. No need to stomp off once the rhetoric gets a little heated... it's clear that everyone involved has the city's (and province's) best interests at heart.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think it's an interesting discussion with valid points to be made on either side. No need to stomp off once the rhetoric gets a little heated... it's clear that everyone involved has the city's (and province's) best interests at heart.

I love debates as much or more than the next guy but Im not going to support a place that encourages repeated insults like this clown does. The other forums I post on give me my feel of arguing with idiots. This place was far more factual and mature then that or so I thought.

I'll just keep to following certain people on twitter and not worry about the dicks.

[bomberjet]

Buddy was telling me the Jets have a deal on now from Sunday to Wednesday. $20 for two cans for beer and a dog. Or $20 for a draft beer and pizza, maybe 2 pizza's. Guess sales weren't as high on those days as they want, which is understandable.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by The Unknown Poster

You can yell louder than me so I guess your opinion is right. Even when its wrong.

At least I can see your point. I just think it's wrong.

Tell me what's 'wrong'. I'd love to know. You're trying to imply that it's just 'hard work' that's put the Chipman's ahead. That's very obviously 'wrong'.

And because you're trying to turn this into a black and white issue, you can't have the conversation. Because nothing is one thing or the other. Yes, the Chipman's have worked hard and they're very lucky generations before them did too, but this idea that it's one person's harder work than the next is so provably and demonstrably wrong that it's self-evident to anybody who pays attention to anything other than the appearance of a hockey team. There are so many other things at play in their success that have absolutely nothing to do with hard work that one could very easily say their success has almost nothing to do with 'hard work'.

Prove me wrong...

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by The Unknown Poster

Im more of a lurker to this site than a contributor. But I love it. Is this the kind of piece of shit asshole that posts here? Insulting posters? I'd assume you're a lefty hipster d bag by your arrogance but I wouldnt want to insult lefty hipsters.

I'll go away now. Enjoyed the site while it lasted. Too easy to exchange insults with idiots.

To the vast majority of you here that routinely fill my day with fantastic information and mature discussion, keep up the good work. See ya around.

Edit to add: Simplicity is an apt name for someone who is clearly exactly what he accuses others of being: a simpleton. Except he's a negative simpleton. He's the kind of jerk that used to come into my place of business, impress everyone with his greatness and get his teeth knocked out. The only difference being he's a common internet tough guy who wouldnt even open his mouth if in the company of most people here. I'd call him a cowardly c*nt but I probably cant say that.

peace out.

I'm a right-of-center developer. You're obviously pretty swift; anybody who doesn't agree with whatever ideology you pretend to have over there is a leftist, hipster douchebag. That in spite of the fact that it's more ideological leftist to have the government subsidizing things in the interest of economic boosterism. So congratulations, you can't even get your own politics right.

And people who talk about others who make them look ignorant getting their teeth knocked really speaks more about them than anybody else. I'm sorry you're so insecure. Maybe you can go knock somebody's teeth out and feel better about it.