Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[GlassCity]

Just to add, I'm actually very happy with the 25% increase in bus service they're offering. It just reaches so many more people, and truth be told, after Broadway and Surrey (and even that's debatable) there's really no pressing need for rapid transit anywhere in the region.

I know I always use the argument against LRT in that coverage isn't anything, but the difference is bus service isn't permanent. You can build a subway on a bus corridor. A subway will never be built if an LRT is already in place.

Rapid transit is only useful if it's easy for people to get to it. This combination of a Millennium Line extension as well as all these various feeder route expansions to it will allow the entire region to benefit from the plan and grow.

[SOSS]

The mayors are asking for $300 Million per year from each upper level of government which Stone has flat out said no. Frustrating. Although I don't necessarily agree with every aspect of the mayors plan, I think it is a well balanced planed servicing the majority of people in Metro Van. Its a bit too political (i.e. Surrey with LRT) but that's democracy at work.

Its as thought the province wants this to fail. They definitely don't want to take responsibility. My opinion: lets either throw all major infrastructure projects over the next 10 years into this referendum (including TCH on the North Shore, GMT replacement, Hwy 91 and Hwy 17 interchange upgrades etc) or throw this referendum out!

Over the past 10-15 years one thing I notice with various governments is they keep pushing things down. i.e. feds pushing healthcare costs to provinces, province pushing transit issues to municipalities, translink pushing station development to developers (i.e. Lincoln Station and Cameron Station). Its not that I necessary disagree with all these movements, my issue is that don't give the various levels the tools required for funding.

[GeeCee]

Yep, typical right wing government behavior.. downloading the responsibility for given things down to the next 'lower' form of government (federal>province, province>region) along with the funding for it.. however that funding is not raised when it is required. It happens over and over again and TransLink's current situation is only the latest example. The region needs to build more transit services but the province is refusing to dole out more money.

An easy fix to this immediate crisis would be to ditch the ill conceived Surrey LRT system and then extend SkyTrain once the Broadway extension to Arbutus (if not UBC) is complete.

[red-paladin]

Id be really disappointed if the federal government gave Surrey hundreds of millions directly for their LRT, but would't give Translink the same amount or less for the entire region.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by SOSS

The mayors are asking for $300 Million per year from each upper level of government which Stone has flat out said no. Frustrating. Although I don't necessarily agree with every aspect of the mayors plan, I think it is a well balanced planed servicing the majority of people in Metro Van. Its a bit too political (i.e. Surrey with LRT) but that's democracy at work.

Its as thought the province wants this to fail. They definitely don't want to take responsibility. My opinion: lets either throw all major infrastructure projects over the next 10 years into this referendum (including TCH on the North Shore, GMT replacement, Hwy 91 and Hwy 17 interchange upgrades etc) or throw this referendum out!

Over the past 10-15 years one thing I notice with various governments is they keep pushing things down. i.e. feds pushing healthcare costs to provinces, province pushing transit issues to municipalities, translink pushing station development to developers (i.e. Lincoln Station and Cameron Station). Its not that I necessary disagree with all these movements, my issue is that don't give the various levels the tools required for funding.

With interest rates as low as they are, it would be absolutely foolish to not do the best capital projects available. Unfortunately that's not what's happening. It's like the province knows that the capital projects proposed by Translink can't be justified this decade.

The province is too bloody distracted with LNG and Pipelines, we got the Canada Line only... what 5 years ago? Did we not get an increase in Translink funding to actually run it or what?

Adding fuel to the fire is the executive perks story that Global FOI'd.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1702780/exclus...s-for-translink-execs-draws-critics-ire/

This kind of thing just makes the public go "Gee Translink is just wasting our money", even though that's a drop in the bucket.

[Vonny]

430 B line

Originally Posted by WBC

...I used 430 a few times before Canada Line opened. However, with Canada Line this route is completely pointless.

Yes, absolutely, that said as noticed by VivaPhysicality, the 430 also ensures connection between South East Vancouver and North East Richmond: That is basically the only reason for its patronage, but that is not its "raison d'etre" which is political (direct connection between Brighouse and Metrotown), but practically useless... and could be even more useless with a optimized route 49 as suggested by Translink but nastily fighted by the City of Vancouver ( see here) or even along the line suggested by xd_1771.

Rather than wasting money by duplicating service, I certainly think there is better value for the money in the below proposal (route renamed 630):


see http://voony.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/a-richmond-transit-plan-the-regional-view/ for more detail...and associated local Richmond plan

You will note in the above map, an express route(411) duplicating the 410:

Originally Posted by Tetsuo

I think 22ND - Richmond Centre would have been a better route for a Bline. The 410 is always busy

As WarrenC12, I fully agree with that: that is the route named 411 in the map above

Notice, that by short cutting Queensborough/Fraserwood, you provide a dramatic advantage for an express/B route as seen here


20 B line
I also think it is a proposal heading in the wrong direction:
average trip length along Commercial/Victoria (anchored by Broadway) are not long enough to have a B line providing a meaningful time saving vs a local bus line (there is also the issue to allow bus over taking on a somewhat narrow Commercial Drive which would like also have bike lanes)...and bus again empty up at the corner of Commercial/Hasting.

rather than this expensive but relatively useless 20B line, I think it is much better to rationalize the existing bus route, e.g, bus stop consolidation and bus lane in the Commercial Drive section:


(see also here)


Also the route 20 should be expanded up to Knight bridge (where it can loop with the Fraser bus), this to provide better connection between South east Vancouver and North East Richmond.

Overall
Add to this ill conceived B line proposals, the Surrey LRT which Translink study has shown the inanity, and the refuse to include the Burnaby Gondola in despite of studies showing to be a much superior solution to buses, all that to fullfill parochial wishes...It starts to be lot of flaw in the Mayor plan...

[bardak]

So increasing taxes for $300 million a year is unaffordable unless it is using property taxes. Why doesn't the province just tell the mayors that the only way they will increase funding is to use the property tax instead of pretending that they are open to other options.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by bardak

So increasing taxes for $300 million a year is unaffordable unless it is using property taxes. Why doesn't the province just tell the mayors that the only way they will increase funding is to use the property tax instead of pretending that they are open to other options.

Because then the shift of responsibility will be blatantly obvious. This way the province is seen as the good guys for keep your taxes low! While forcing a property tax hike shifts the blame for the higher taxes over to the mayors who are then placed between a rock and hard place: their city is seen as having poor transit and they suffer at the polls.. or they raise property taxes and suffer at the polls as well.

Downloading works great until you run out of levels of government to download to.

[WarrenC12]

Todd Stone is a complete failure as a Transportation Minister.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by Kisai

With interest rates as low as they are, it would be absolutely foolish to not do the best capital projects available. Unfortunately that's not what's happening. It's like the province knows that the capital projects proposed by Translink can't be justified this decade.

The province is too bloody distracted with LNG and Pipelines, we got the Canada Line only... what 5 years ago? Did we not get an increase in Translink funding to actually run it or what?

Adding fuel to the fire is the executive perks story that Global FOI'd.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1702780/exclus...s-for-translink-execs-draws-critics-ire/

This kind of thing just makes the public go "Gee Translink is just wasting our money", even though that's a drop in the bucket.

$1000/mo car allowance...

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by st7860

$1000/mo car allowance...

1000$ x 12 months = 12,000$. Multiply that over 30 years and it's still only 360,000$.

But as some have pointed out. They could have leased new vehicles for cheaper. Anyhow the point was that it's a waste of money, but it wouldn't pay for a single bus driver in a year.

Global just aired a video clip of the "three" options being considered for the Transit referendum:

165$ vehicle levy
doubling of the carbon tax
or 0.5% local regional sales tax

That last one I feel is a non-starter, because that will just send even more people cross-border shopping.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Kisai

1000$ x 12 months = 12,000$. Multiply that over 30 years and it's still only 360,000$.

But as some have pointed out. They could have leased new vehicles for cheaper. Anyhow the point was that it's a waste of money, but it wouldn't pay for a single bus driver in a year.

Global just aired a video clip of the "three" options being considered for the Transit referendum:

165$ vehicle levy
doubling of the carbon tax
or 0.5% local regional sales tax

That last one I feel is a non-starter, because that will just send even more people cross-border shopping.

Even though its not *that* much, its the principle of it all. These Translink Executives already have high salaries, even more so compared to their counterparts in cities in North America that has even bigger transit systems.

Plus they get a ton of perks, have their brand new HQ right beside the Skytrain Line, and frankly, do not warrant enough meeting trips outside the HQ to have a $1000/month for a car allowance. Its just absolutely madness and is just an example of how they are simply milking the taxpayers.

And its not like they are that good at their jobs to begin with. The fact that despite their high compensation and supposedly unique skillset to justify such compensation, they manage the transit system like amateurs. People in other larger cities with more complex transit lines can do so for less.

So why would normal folk, who don't have car allowances, a lot have to put up with a poorly managed transit system and pay a ton (the execs have free transit passes too), and most don't even work in buildings right beside a Skytrain, support additional funding, and apparently it still won't be enough to give the services that was promised (due to Todd Stone's stubborness)....WTF???

I am a transit supporter, but even I am inclined to vote no at this point. These Execs should lead by example, and since they are in the business of providing transit, it is only fair that they use it. Besides, having those big decision makers use the service that they are suppose to be providing will ensure that they will see the problems first hand, and may even be persuaded to actually improve the system!

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Even though its not *that* much, its the principle of it all. These Translink Executives already have high salaries, even more so compared to their counterparts in cities in North America that has even bigger transit systems.

Plus they get a ton of perks, have their brand new HQ right beside the Skytrain Line, and frankly, do not warrant enough meeting trips outside the HQ to have a $1000/month for a car allowance. Its just absolutely madness and is just an example of how they are simply milking the taxpayers.

And its not like they are that good at their jobs to begin with. The fact that despite their high compensation and supposedly unique skillset to justify such compensation, they manage the transit system like amateurs. People in other larger cities with more complex transit lines can do so for less.

So why would normal folk, who don't have car allowances, a lot have to put up with a poorly managed transit system and pay a ton (the execs have free transit passes too), and most don't even work in buildings right beside a Skytrain, support additional funding, and apparently it still won't be enough to give the services that was promised (due to Todd Stone's stubborness)....WTF???

I am a transit supporter, but even I am inclined to vote no at this point. These Execs should lead by example, and since they are in the business of providing transit, it is only fair that they use it. Besides, having those big decision makers use the service that they are suppose to be providing will ensure that they will see the problems first hand, and may even be persuaded to actually improve the system!

$1000 doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. $500/mo lease without a down payment, $250/mo insurance, $250/mo gas and maintenance

That gets you what, a midsize Buick?

[nname]

Originally Posted by Kisai

165$ vehicle levy
doubling of the carbon tax
or 0.5% local regional sales tax

That last one I feel is a non-starter, because that will just send even more people cross-border shopping.

Interestingly, that is what Seattle used to pay for transit.

A 0.9% sales tax for the entire Sound Transit service area, plus an additional 0.9% for King County, generates close to a billion dollar worth of tax revenue. That one item alone worth more than the sum of all transit taxes here.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

$1000 doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. $500/mo lease without a down payment, $250/mo insurance, $250/mo gas and maintenance

That gets you what, a midsize Buick?

Most working people don't even have car allowances and free transit...all their transportation is paid on their own expense...

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by nname

Interestingly, that is what Seattle used to pay for transit.

A 0.9% sales tax for the entire Sound Transit service area, plus an additional 0.9% for King County, generates close to a billion dollar worth of tax revenue. That one item alone worth more than the sum of all transit taxes here.

I don't see that going over well after rejecting the HST.

[BCPhil]

Just raise the damn property taxes and be done with it. It is the most progressive solution that impacts people who own property within their means the least. People who benefit from new infrastructure the most see their home prices rise the most pay the most, people left out in the cold by upgrades see the least raise in taxes. Every other option can unduly put extreme hardship on poor people who don't deserve it.

(Yes, I am saying people who over spend on buying a home they can hardly afford at almost 0% interest should be punished; maybe higher property taxes will re-balance home prices).

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Most working people don't even have car allowances and free transit...all their transportation is paid on their own expense...

If you are travelling around during the workday on company business, the company should pay 100% of that.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

If you are travelling around during the workday on company business, the company should pay 100% of that.

And where could they possibly go on company business during the workday that would cost $1000 a month for each executive?

Wasn't the whole point of the Translink HQ in New West to consolidate their operations in one big facility?

I can understand some executive of some multinational corporation needing to travel to and from different offices all over, or even B2B Account Executives needing to see clients, but this is a local transit agency! The occassional trip to a city hall would not cost $1000 a month in car expenses...

Honestly, want to defend the pitfalls of Translink, do it for the right reasons such as that idiot Todd Stone being pig-headed about the funding. But if Translink is at the wrong, then by all means, they should be condemned. Defending a stupid, unjustifiable practice will NOT bring you the Broadway Line!

[WBC]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Just raise the damn property taxes and be done with it. It is the most progressive solution that impacts people who own property within their means the least. People who benefit from new infrastructure the most see their home prices rise the most pay the most, people left out in the cold by upgrades see the least raise in taxes. Every other option can unduly put extreme hardship on poor people who don't deserve it.

(Yes, I am saying people who over spend on buying a home they can hardly afford at almost 0% interest should be punished; maybe higher property taxes will re-balance home prices).

Agreed. Our property taxes are low compared to the rest of the country anyway. This has been an endless political game between mayors and the province that has wasted now, what? 6-7 years on pointless discussion of how to tax the taxpayer. Guess what, as a member of the middle class, I will be taxed one way or another - whether it is a property tax or car levy or sales tax. It really does not matter which way...And if you think that as a car-less renter you won't get taxed, well...you will be indirectly - somebody is going to pass the cost to you...

And as I stated before - I think that mayors transit plan is only going to make one group happy - the bus drivers...It lacks any imagination, it is a complete political compromise that puts something in everybody's basket without making any bold moves...If it goes forward in 5 years Translink will be criticized for running empty buses around suburbs and we will be back to optimization once again.

Having said that we have a very good transit system for a NA city of this size. But we need to be bolder, we need to think long term and we need to figure out how to minimize operational costs while providing the best solution possible (I think that gondola for example was a fantastic idea and should be done as a P3 project)