Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Buggys

I agree with this too. ...except I would cut and cover over Byron road/street. Richmond is only that vibrant because of the amount of people there, some of whom only go there because of the short term street parking.

The LRT would be running to the west of that part of Richmond... It would be running through the dumpier parts that need some vibrance, you know west of Broadview Ave.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Yes, governments never introduce election gimmicks a year before an election, just prudent economic planning the tories spent the surplus last month.

"ready for tender in a year and a half" seems pretty ambitious.

Orleans EA isn't supposed to be done until Spring 16 (http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public...ew-august-2014) and the bayshore extension isn't supposed to be done until the end of next year (http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/doc...h1_db_2_en.pdf) so it seems fairly unlikely it would be ready for tender in a year and a half (Confederation Line EA was approved in Summer 2010 and a shortlist of bidders took another year). And of course there are no specific funding commitments from either the federal or provincial governments (something both had done in 2009 for the confederation line). I couldn't find information about when the city planned other steps required for tender (preliminary engineering, preliminary design, geotechnical studies)

It seems a best case scenario "phase 2" is where the confederation line was in early 2009 (route mostly planned but details TBC, no specific funding commitments, ea underway) which would mean 3-4 years from contract signing would be a reasonable guess. In a less than best case scenario (disputes over the route take longer than expected, feds, city and province do not agree on money, bids come in higher than expected, etc) it could take considerably longer.

Much of design and preliminary engineering is rolled into construction by the P3 model. If you recall the Confederation Line's opening was moved up by an entire year when this was done (it was originally supposed to be open in 2019 under the schedule planned by the 2006-2010 council). There was a 17 month tendering period for Phase 1. I imagine the city's goal is to have a contract signed in Q4 2018 so construction can begin in the 2019 season. For that, we'd have to be ready to call for a shortlist in the summer of 2017. So ya, about three years.

You're certainly high on something if you think Phase 2 is going to collapse/fall by the wayside because of the city's actions or lack thereof. If Phase 2 does fall through, it will be the fault of the NCC or federal budgets. It might possibly be the province but that's unlikely, the province is very friendly to transit.

The province is as committed as they can be at this stage. There's no dollar amount committed because no dollar amount is known. They don't want to repeat the mistake of last time which was to give $600M only to find it short of the required amount. Also, the Building Canada Fund money from the feds is being rolled into Move Ontario Forward, so I imagine that technically means the province is funding two-thirds. Until these details are sorted out dollars won't flow. And they don't have to just yet.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

The LRT would be running to the west of that part of Richmond... It would be running through the dumpier parts that need some vibrance, you know west of Broadview Ave.

I recently bought a microwave on Kijiji from somebody who lives near Richmond & Cleary, and I was amazed at how non-urban that area is. Everything I heard about the west LRT saga told me that the area around Byron Park was urban. But after seeing it myself, McKellar Park really just looks like more suburbia to me, and Richmond in that area is hardly an urban mainstreet.

[eemy]

Yeah, it is unfortunate that the section of the western corridor that follows Richmond also is the least urban part. Hopefully they will introduce zoning to encourage more main street character along that stretch, particularly adjacent to stations.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I recently bought a microwave on Kijiji from somebody who lives near Richmond & Cleary, and I was amazed at how non-urban that area is. Everything I heard about the west LRT saga told me that the area around Byron Park was urban. But after seeing it myself, McKellar Park really just looks like more suburbia to me, and Richmond in that area is hardly an urban mainstreet.

Oh ya, Richmond from Cleary to the Parkway overpass (and beyond) is an abomination - and it's been that way for at least 25 years. The Continental condo is the only recent change along there east of Woodroffe, and there's little of note that's new west of Woodroffe. From Cleary to Westboro it at least has some kind of character; the townhouse condos in particular are a pretty unique feature, right down to the stonewall.

The weirdest building to me is the Lord Richmond tower - that's the one next to Kristy's. It's got its own fake streetfront, right down to a sidewalk. In my view that bit of silliness should just be expropriated and incorporated outright into a realigned Richmond Rd. Doing so would free up some space on the other side of Richmond to run LRT, in whatever guise, without impacting the park as much.

https://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=e...249.12,,0,-3.3

Seriously - just go back and forth on Streetview on that and try to convince yourself that shifting the street north wouldn't be a good idea from the Continental to at least the stub of Lockhart past the HoHos and possibly all the way to Woodroffe.

[eternallyme]

Just to bring back a thought, how much would it cost to run the LRT as far as Westboro, turn south along Churchill or Kirkwood with a cut-and-cover tunnel, and then along Carling, with a mixed median alignment (some sections at grade, some sections trenched)? That way, most of the high traffic areas are serviced (while adding Carlingwood and some heavy business areas near Carling/417), it remains grade-separated at lowest possible cost, and the NCC and NIMBYs are bypassed altogether.

[Luker]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Just to bring back a thought, how much would it cost to run the LRT as far as Westboro, turn south along Churchill or Kirkwood with a cut-and-cover tunnel, and then along Carling, with a mixed median alignment (some sections at grade, some sections trenched)? That way, most of the high traffic areas are serviced (while adding Carlingwood and some heavy business areas near Carling/417), it remains grade-separated at lowest possible cost, and the NCC and NIMBYs are bypassed altogether.

I always thought about this as well. It seems like this route would provide for an ideal situation in terms of service cache and potential future ridership. However, as you noted, whats the cost $$$? Opportunities for intensification on Carling seem so much more apparent and likely organic then on Richmond West of the Boro.

It would definitely require a few hundred extra meters of tunneling in comparison and the traffic prioritization with Carling would be more expensive and difficult.. Any of you in the engineering world have an idea?

[Kitchissippi]

There is actually more potential for TOD redevelopment along Richmond than there is on Carling. From Cleary to the parkway there are several car lots on the Richmond side and compounds of low-rise rentals on the Byron side which are ripe for replacement — basically larger parcels of land with singular owners. Most of the land along Carling will require more complicated land assembly schemes, and the large properties like the mall are already viable commercial spaces that might not necessarily have room for residential development. Richmond Road also has better chances of becoming more pedestrian friendly, and its proximity to the waterfront gives it better perceived value than a busy arterial like Carling (higher increased assessment equals more collected property taxes).

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Luker

I always thought about this as well. It seems like this route would provide for an ideal situation in terms of service cache and potential future ridership. However, as you noted, whats the cost $$$? Opportunities for intensification on Carling seem so much more apparent and likely organic then on Richmond West of the Boro.

It would definitely require a few hundred extra meters of tunneling in comparison and the traffic prioritization with Carling would be more expensive and difficult.. Any of you in the engineering world have an idea?

I know some rejected plans continued it along Carling as far out as the O-Train corridor, in order to serve the hospitals, but that would result in skipping over Tunney's Pasture (an absolute no-no).

I would think a route along Churchill would gain the most ridership - picking up those to Westboro, then along Carling west of the 417 including Carlingwood. The problem is on cost...is it worth it to gain the most ridership and development potential?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

You're certainly high on something if you think Phase 2 is going to collapse/fall by the wayside because of the city's actions or lack thereof. If Phase 2 does fall through, it will be the fault of the NCC or federal budgets. It might possibly be the province but that's unlikely, the province is very friendly to transit.

Sadly not high, but I have noticed over the last decade or so that numerous projects have been cancelled (new central library, concert hall), been scaled back (Confederation Line, Arts Court) or gone off the rails (anything to do with the o-train or any bridge) because cost estimates were too low, planned funding did not materialize, or the city struggled with project management. Maybe everything will be perfect, but the city's strategy of bundling 3 separate rail projects into a single phase 2 has increased the city's risk significantly by upping the cost, stretching staff and construction industry resources, and significantly raising the ask for the federal and provincial governments (almost 5% of the provinces transportation infrastructure budget for the decade and more than a third of Ontario's share of the building Canada fund - and that's assuming it is only a $3B project). The public pissing contest between JB and JW certainly doesn't help.

[eternallyme]

What are the soil conditions beneath Churchill and Kirkwood Avenues? Since those would be the only reasonable routes to access Carling and avoid the NIMBY's, and a bored tunnel would likely be required (cut and cover is possible but would lead to significant disruption).

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

What are the soil conditions beneath Churchill and Kirkwood Avenues?

Well... I can tell you that from the past 2 years of watching Churchill being dug up and re-sewered there is an awful lot of plain old clay/dirt (at least down to 3m or so).

Given the transitway appears to be carved out of bedrock... you probably wouldn't have to go too much further down to find that stuff...

And maybe this time round they will actually bury the wires...

[rocketphish]

City, NCC to provide western LRT update

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: March 5, 2015, Last Updated: March 5, 2015 8:24 PM EST

The 100-day truce between the City of Ottawa and the National Capital Commission appears to have ended with a compromise agreement on the controversial portion of the western extension of light rail.

The details are expected to be revealed Friday morning at a joint press conference downtown.

But sources close to the file told the Citizen late Thursday that some type of compromise had been reached and that the two sides have been working co-operatively for the past three months.

Officials from both the city and NCC have been tight-lipped about developments on the file since Mayor Jim Watson and former Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird met at the end of November and agreed to stop bickering about the matter publicly.

Baird has since resigned from his position and Nepean-Carleton MP Pierre Poilievre has been named the new minister responsible for the NCC.

Kitchissippi Coun. Jeff Leiper said he expected to be briefed on the latest developments before the 10:30 a.m. news conference. The section of proposed rail is located in his ward.

“It certainly wouldn’t surprise me if they found a compromise,” he said, adding the negotiations between the two organizations have been confidential.

“What I think this discussion has been about is how much of the route do they need to bury and how deep in order to satisfy the NCC conditions, and I expect to hear (on Friday) whether they’ve been able to arrive at that compromise,” Leiper said.

The councillor said the “ideal outcome” for him would be a full burial of the tunnel along the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway. But, he added, such a measure would likely impose costs on the city.

A fully buried tunnel would not impact green space, or impede access to the Ottawa River, and reflects a similar position expressed by the NCC board last fall, Leiper said.

The NCC said then that it supports the city’s western light-rail transit project, but the two sides have remained at odds over the 1.2-kilometre section of the proposed $980-million Richmond Underground line that would cross NCC land along the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway.

The city wants to run the line through a trench, 700 metres of which would be partly covered. But the NCC board declared in November that it would not approve the line unless it allowed unimpeded access to the Ottawa River shoreline and has a “minimal visual impact” on the parkway corridor landscape.

The city says it can’t afford a tunnel along the river, nor is it willing to support surface rail along Richmond Road or the Byron Linear Park.

With files from Joanne Chianello

[email protected]
twitter.com/mpearson78

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...ern-lrt-update

[1overcosc]

This is a good sign.

[JCL]

http://ottawa.ca/en/news/ncc-city-wo...t-rail-transit

[c_speed3108]

Fully buried under realigned parkway. Fits the same budget somehow. Creates stacked transportation corridor.

[agl]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Fully buried under realigned parkway. Fits the same budget somehow. Creates stacked transportation corridor.

Maybe they can raise a few bucks by selling off part or all of Rochester Field for TOD with a transit station incorporated into the development, moved slightly west from Dominion. If they are planning a park of national significance along the river with more access points across the SJAM, then Rochester Field would not be required as a green space anyway.

[waterloowarrior]

MOU...the city and NCC will also resolve the Rochester Field OMB appeal and 2/3rds of that land will be changed to General Urban in the Official Plan
http://www.ncc-ccn.gc.ca/sites/defau...g_group_en.pdf

[Kitchissippi]

Why is "stacking" it under the parkway suddenly cheaper than running it directly under Richmond using cut-and-cover? Seems to me they're just re-inventing the terms for tunnelling.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Why is "stacking" it under the parkway suddenly cheaper than running it directly under Richmond using cut-and-cover? Seems to me they're just re-inventing the terms for tunnelling.

Yeah, I've never understood why a cut and cover under Richmond is deemed so prohibitively expensive, either... anyone know if there are major utilities under the road or something?