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  #1921  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 4:34 AM
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Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
My recollection is that Doug buys birthday billboards for a hobby.
A very uninspired and juvenile try: Cal Wenzel is unhip, Nenshi is hip. I typically disagree with Nenshi so I am unhip so I must like Cal Wenzel. I am particularly unhip because I used more than 140 characters
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  #1922  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 4:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown View Post
lol, I'll make sure to have enough time to check Wikipedia before shooting off my mouth with rants I have no facts to back it with!

there, fair enough?

but regardless... FUND THE FUCKING THING!
How much? Should we just buy the whole f'n thing for them? Maybe some of us would like our tax dollars to go towards something we use on a daily basis.
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  #1923  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 4:54 AM
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I've bolded my favourite arguments in favour of using city tax dollars to fund a new stadium:

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Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown View Post
How about you tell your buddy Naheed to give us our tax money back for that bullshit pedestrian bridge and that ridiculous street light pole near the airport... I'll personally go give the check directly to Ken King!
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Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown View Post
lol, I'll make sure to have enough time to check Wikipedia before shooting off my mouth with rants I have no facts to back it with!

there, fair enough?

but regardless... FUND THE FUCKING THING!
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Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown View Post
Just fund the fucking thing publicly and get it under construction, as well as a new football stadium too... I'm sick and tired of the dog shit sports venues in this city!

You're more than welcome to take my taxes out of Cochrane for it too... I'd much rather fund that than a lot of the stupid shit my taxes go to now!
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Originally Posted by jawagord View Post
I think the city should step up with something, cetainly cash won't fly with taxpayers but I think land loan, tax breaks would. While I'm not a season ticket holder I've watched the stamps and flames for free on TV literally 100's of games plus attending the occasional game at the dome or McMahon. In comparison the city is giving land and spending $250 million in tax dollars on a new library and I haven't been to a city library in 15 years!
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  #1924  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 4:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
A very uninspired and juvenile try: Cal Wenzel is unhip, Nenshi is hip. I typically disagree with Nenshi so I am unhip so I must like Cal Wenzel. I am particularly unhip because I used more than 140 characters
You seem internally conflicted.
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  #1925  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 5:01 AM
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There's a sweet plaque somewhere in the Saddledome of its blue prints. I learned that the Dome is a "hyperboloid parabola" cut into a perfect sphere. I'd be sad to see this icon go, but sadder if I had to pay to get rid of it.
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  #1926  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tomthumb2 View Post
So a swanky new arena would transform Edmonton's downtown but not Calgary's? Am I missing something or is Calgary's downtown just that awesome.
Calgary's arena is already basically downtown so what sort of transformative properties will moving it have?
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  #1927  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
A very uninspired and juvenile try: Cal Wenzel is unhip, Nenshi is hip. I typically disagree with Nenshi so I am unhip so I must like Cal Wenzel. I am particularly unhip because I used more than 140 characters
Your decisions should not be driven by your impression of personal hipness.

Smart solutions are not about ideology. That's why Nenshi wins.
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  #1928  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 5:03 PM
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WTF is going on in this thread? suburbia's on his meds or something because he's arguing against Doug and not simply trolling about the inner city.
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  #1929  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
There have been some really great points from all forumers.

There are also a few key assumptions that we need to elucidate:

-How many seats? How many boxes? A few years ago, King told me there would be the same number of seats, but they would be better, and there would be about 2x as many boxes.

-Will the Saddledome remain? Who owns it when the dust clears? In the same conversation, King told me there was no way to keep both, because the saddledome is too expensive to operate and Calgary's market can't support two arenas.

-In 1980 the team cost $16M. Today it is valued around $451M.



My view:

The public DOES stand to potentially benefit from the construction of a newer, larger stadium, but from this gain we must subtract the opportunity cost of premium land, debt servicing, and the loss of the Saddledome. In my estimation, the sum magnitude of direct and indirect benefit to Calgary would probably be in the 10s of millions annually with only minimal social benefit, assuming the alternative is the status quo. Bus service hours, bike lanes, and beautification projects might be better bang for our buck, especially given the limited commitment/risk of investing in these public services/infrastructure. For the price of the stadium, we could probably build 25 state-of-the-art minor hockey arenas and free equipment for every kid in Calgary. Calgary could probably build its own Rideau Canal for half a billion.

Where it IS worth investing city $$$ is in peripheral projects associated with a new stadium, so that private ROI can be maximized. This might include anything from road realignment to transit to site work for adjacent developments. The city should do whatever it can to keep the area near the new stadium as vibrant, multi-use, and 24-7 as possible. The last thing we want is for $0.5B dollars to be spent to get the same thing we have now. As outdated as the Dome might be, the area surrounding the Dome is 100x worse.

Ideally, this is what I would like - though a complex agreement always has room for compromise:
-City-owned land be donated to ownership group
-private developers fully fund stadium construction and operation
-as part of the deal, the city promises to spend x million dollars by such a date on upgrading the entire WV, including changes to road layout, pedestrian infrastructure, park space, river access, possibly a CPR underpass to 17th street, a new bridge to 19th st NW, and maybe even fix CROWCHILD.
-City holds exclusive right to parking management
-City charges for water&power
-Building code on stadiums be carefully revisited, ensuring design is up to modern best practices that will benefit Calgarians
-property tax exemption (may depend on how concession space is owned/leased/controlled)

This kind of deal would mean the owners would build the stadium for $400-700
M (partly user fee), and the city would spend invest a few hundred million (depending on scope) around the stadium to ensure its success while addressing some other needs at the same time.

The timing is also important. It would be great to take a Keynesian approach and buy this during the next down turn, so long as we could save before and/or access low interest. In light of recent property tax hikes, it might be best to wait a few years. It would also be great to move forward as CMLC involvement in the EV begins to wrap up. I'm pretty skeptical of an Olympic bid in the next few years, but perhaps down the road.
I’d like to keep the Saddledome as well. I think it’s an important historic building at this point. I’d be prepared to sacrifice the Stampede Corral, however. Maybe a redeveloped Corral, plus the Saddledome along with other buildings on the grounds could function as the large convention facility we’ve been talking about?
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  #1930  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 6:20 PM
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That's an interesting point. Although the Corral is a listed historic resource, I don't believe the Saddledome is. Typically a 30 year old building wouldn't qualify to get on the list, but of course the Saddledome is unlike most buildings due to its landmark status.
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  #1931  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 7:53 PM
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Why is the Corral historic? it's a big concrete bunker with no aesthetic appeal at all. If we keep the Corral and demolish the Saddledome I'm moving to Winnipeg...
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  #1932  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 8:05 PM
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Why is the Corral historic? it's a big concrete bunker with no aesthetic appeal at all. If we keep the Corral and demolish the Saddledome I'm moving to Winnipeg...
Yeah I don't really get it either. It does have a certain old school feeling when inside of it with the beams at the top and the seating, but generally I'm in agreement. The Dome is much more impressive. The roof is amazing from inside.

Edit: The Big 4 is the real turd though. Why don't they just get rid of it?
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  #1933  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 8:40 PM
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Why is the Corral historic?
It could work well as a homeless shelter.
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  #1934  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
Yeah I don't really get it either. It does have a certain old school feeling when inside of it with the beams at the top and the seating, but generally I'm in agreement. The Dome is much more impressive. The roof is amazing from inside.

Edit: The Big 4 is the real turd though. Why don't they just get rid of it?
Agreed. Big four would be my number one choice for an arena , but I feel like stampede grounds are out of the question.
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  #1935  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 8:57 PM
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WTF is going on in this thread? suburbia's on his meds or something because he's arguing against Doug and not simply trolling about the inner city.
Most of you have me pegged wrong. Just because my handle is suburbia doesn't mean I'm a one-dimensional ideologue. I'm a fan of higher density urban planning, public spaces, civil society, leading architecture, but also am a fan of understanding complexities at a level where solutions are not always black or white.
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  #1936  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 9:02 PM
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Originally Posted by *Stardust* View Post
Agreed. Big four would be my number one choice for an arena , but I feel like stampede grounds are out of the question.
Big four location could actually be a great location for a good-sized full-service hotel with conference-type facilities that could augment the BMO centre.
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  #1937  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 9:37 PM
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The Big Four is actually also on the heritage list, although I personally don't care for it.
The key is when then Calgary Heritage Authority evaluates whether a building should be deemed 'historic', architecture is only one part of it, a lot is also the actual history of the site. As for the corral, unfortunately it's 'statement of significance' isn't online but a summary says ( my summary of the summary):

-Architect John Stevenson was commissioned to undertake the project. Stevenson spent several months touring North America to study the latest in arena design.

-Opened in December of 1950, the Stampede Corral was a fire resistant structure capable of seating 6,650 and 2,200 standing (19 rows on rink sides, 21 on ends). Modern in every respect, the arena was praised for its steel roof arches which were designed not to obstruct views of the ice surface or horse show ring.

-The ice rink itself was controlled by a modern freezing plant enabling ice to be formed in twenty-four hours; only Maple Leaf Gardens could also boast this service.

-The building combines Art Deco, Moderne, and International styles. The stepped back massing is characteristic of the period. Building decoration is derivative of the Art Deco and Moderne influences. Innovative construction (long span steel), the use of high quality materials (terrazzo floors), and modern mechanical systems (the first refrigeration system of its kind) combined to provide a facility unmatched in Western Canada.

plus I believe associations with Stampede Wrestling, etc.

It is tricky though when the architecture of a historic building falls out of style, (eg brutalism)

That said, remember that in the 1970s, about 60-70 years after the era of the sorts of buildings on Stephen Ave, those buildings were also considered out of style and wholesale demolition happened all over the innercity. Mid century buildings are now that same 60-70 years old.
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  #1938  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 10:43 PM
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Interesting, thanks for that Dizzy.
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  #1939  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2014, 11:26 PM
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It could work well as a homeless shelter.

And there's the suburbia we all know.

Last edited by O-tacular; Nov 28, 2014 at 6:14 PM.
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  #1940  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2014, 5:36 AM
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I'd hate to see either the Corral or Saddledome demolished. Both have history and architectural value, and the 'dome looks great on the skyline from so many angles (including up the hill on 17th SW and from inside my house). The inside of the Saddledome, however, has been pretty badly buggered up with the renovations over the years to make it more profitable. The lower bowl boxes in particular (which they obviously needed to add) wrecked the lines and the nice open concourse that wrapped the whole rink.
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