Sports in Canadian culture

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The difference is Hockey has pretty much reached its potential in terms of global reach just due to climate and cost of play. Plus you already got the biggest difference there, China. Basketball is growing very quickly in popularity in Argentina due to the success of Manu Ginobili on the Spurs, and in Brazil due to the recent number of promising prospects that have been drafted. Every continent on the planet has churned out several starting NBA players.

Good point, hockey kind of restricts itself by needing relative cold and being really expensive to play.

Though technically every continent has produced a starter in hockey too (except Oceania only has a prospect)!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I find small-town Canada feels far more American than our big cities. When you're in Toronto and Montreal you know which country you're in, one foot in North America, one foot in the UK. I realize Montreal is bilingual but outwardly they do appear to have that same architectural and urban street vibe you get if you mix London with Brooklyn (Toronto a bit more London, Montreal a bit more Brooklyn). There's less visible economic and ethnic stratification as well. Waterloo, Kingston, Ottawa, and from what I've seen certainly the Prairies, have far more of an American vibe to them: football, small town fashion, ethnic mix, etc. Perhaps small town Canada feels that USA = New York / Chicago / LA and thus equate Canada's biggest city as being more American as a result.

I don't see it as country mouse vs. town house type of thing. I think people expect and would like Toronto to exercise more leadership on the Canadian cultural and identity front, and that if only Toronto got on board more, it's enhanced contribution could make stuff like the Grey Cup, the Juno Awards, Canadian movies, the Brier, Canadian magazines, the Memorial Cup, etc., much bigger and exctiing things for everyone than they are at the moment.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't see it as country mouse vs. town house type of thing. I think people expect and would like Toronto to exercise more leadership on the Canadian cultural and identity front, and that if only Toronto got on board more, it's enhanced contribution could make stuff like the Grey Cup, the Juno Awards, Canadian movies, the Brier, Canadian magazines, the Memorial Cup, etc., much bigger and exctiing things for everyone than they are at the moment.

In European countries it seems like it's the capital cities that drive that stuff. In Canada, our largest city mostly ignores them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

In European countries it seems like it's the capital cities that drive that stuff. In Canada, our largest city mostly ignores them.

And I think it's been established that driving Canada's stuff (at least with the intensity you see from most other metropolises around the world) just isn't Toronto's "thing".

I mean, Toronto's still "there" on a certain level, especially the administrative and corporate ones (CFL head office is there, most TV shows and movies are made there, most magazines are published there, the TV networks and sponsors are there). When it comes to passion and interest though... not so much.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

In European countries it seems like it's the capital cities that drive that stuff. In Canada, our largest city mostly ignores them.

Also, Toronto's not our capital city. Although I am not sure it would change that much if it was.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't see it as country mouse vs. town house type of thing. I think people expect and would like Toronto to exercise more leadership on the Canadian cultural and identity front, and that if only Toronto got on board more, it's enhanced contribution could make stuff like the Grey Cup, the Juno Awards, Canadian movies, the Brier, Canadian magazines, the Memorial Cup, etc., much bigger and exctiing things for everyone than they are at the moment.

I get what you're saying and I do agree with you on this point. Was merely pointing out the obvious fallacy in the "American Toronto" nonsense earlier in this thread. If people wanted to make the above point they could have just said that instead of using inaccurate side arguments about being non-Canadian.

Anyway, Toronto, to use an analogy, is sort of like a young weightlifter. The experienced weightlifters in his country have dropped a few pounds and are out of form due to spending most of their time on internal politics in the National Olympic Committee. Due to this, he has been qualified despite his young age, by various metrics, to replace them and represent his country at international competitions. He is spending most of his time eating, pumping iron, studying kineseology and practicing in the gym. This is frustrating Olympic fans in his country as they want him to focus on winning regional and federation competitions. However, he is playing the long game, he could expend his energy with his present limited technical and physical ability (even if it is the best in his country in his sport) and work like a dog for a likely 3rd place finish in an international competition. He prefers to grow in all physical and knowledge areas of his sport while only participating in local contests to test out some theories. There is no competition for his position nationally so he can afford to invest his time in this way without worrying about losing his standing with the National Olympic Committee. The fruit of these actions will be visible when he starts competing in international qualification competitions in a few years for the Olympics. By then his investment on self-development will allow him to begin competing at his max mass, strength, technical knowledge and perfect form with far lower chance of stress, side effects (injury, etc.) and a far greater chance of taking the gold.

Toronto's immediate priorities are growing and developing economically, a unified regional transportation infrastructure, fixing the waterfront, maturing its internal cultural institutions and consolidating its power within the province. Most of what it has in terms of national cultural accoutrements are the side effect of internal development and not the result of focused growth in those areas. In 2015 it will be the first time that the GTA will have the seats redistributed to tilt the balance of power (majority of seats) in their favour. Naturally the rest of Ontario would argue we dominate this province already, but it's not sufficiently dominant the way we would have to be to truly consolidate resources for serious development, investment and growth (and quite frankly, Toronto is subsidizing the rest of Ontario, not the other way around). How can we focus on leading the country culturally or otherwise when we're still fighting to dominate this province the way London dominates Greater London, NYC dominates New York State and Paris dominates Ile De France. Toronto will get there, but we have smaller fish to fry before spearing the big whales. I don't necessarily agree with this approach, but it does appear to be the path Toronto is treading.

(Edited)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I get what you're saying and I do agree with you on this point. Was merely pointing out the obvious fallacy in the "American Toronto" nonsense earlier in this thread. If people wanted to make the above point they could have just said that instead of using inaccurate side arguments about being non-Canadian.

Anyway, Toronto, to use an analogy, is sort of like a young weightlifter. The experienced weightlifters in his country have dropped a few pounds and are out of form due to spending most of their time on internal politics in the National Olympic Committee. Due to this, he has been qualified despite his young age, by various metrics, to replace them and represent his country at international competitions. He is spending most of his time eating, pumping iron, studying kineseology and practicing in the gym. This is frustrating Olympic fans in his country as they want him to focus on winning regional and federation competitions. However, he is playing the long game, he could expend his energy with his present limited technical and physical ability (even if it is the best in his country in his sport) and work like a dog for a likely 3rd place finish in an international competition. He prefers to grow in all physical and knowledge areas of his sport while only participating in local contests to test out some theories. There is no competition for his position nationally so he can afford to invest his time in this way without worrying about losing his standing with the National Olympic Committee. The fruit of these actions will be visible when he starts competing in international qualification competitions in a few years for the Olympics. By then his investment on self-development will allow him to begin competing at his max mass, strength, technical knowledge and perfect form with far lower chance of stress, side effects (injury, etc.) and a far greater chance of taking the gold.

Toronto's immediate priorities are growing and developing economically, a unified regional transportation infrastructure, fixing the waterfront, maturing its internal cultural institutions and consolidating its power within the province. Most of what it has in terms of national cultural accoutrements are the side effect of internal development and not the result of focused growth in those areas. In 2015 it will be the first time that the GTA will have the seats redistributed to tilt the balance of power (majority of seats) in their favour. Naturally the rest of Ontario would argue we dominate this province already, but it's not sufficiently dominant the way we would have to be to truly consolidate resources for serious development, investment and growth (and quite frankly, Toronto is subsidizing the rest of Ontario, not the other way around). How can we focus on leading the country culturally or otherwise when we're still fighting to dominate this province the way London dominates Greater London, NYC dominates New York State and Paris dominates Ile De France. Toronto will get there, but we have smaller fish to fry before spearing the big whales. I don't necessarily agree with this approach, but it does appear to be the path Toronto is treading.

(Edited)

Thanks for taking the time to think of this and type it. Very interesting.

One question that came to mind: don't you think that other metropolises around the world also have governance, infrastructure and identity/demographic and many other issues to deal with, but still very effectively exercise the type of leadership we are talking about? (It's not a snarky question - I am interested in the answer.)

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thanks for taking the time to think of this and type it. Very interesting.

One question that came to mind: don't you think that other metropolises around the world also have governance, infrastructure and identity/demographic and many other issues to deal with, but still very effectively exercise the type of leadership we are talking about? (It's not a snarky question - I am interested in the answer.)

Certainly. However, the ones that are also major cultural centres for their country also had moments in their history when they had already achieved their physical, economic and political objectives. London was a stuffy austere place in Victorian times and downright third world before those times, it only became a cultural power when it became an important economic and imperial center (it had already achieved its political objectives centuries before). The perfect analogy would be Ancient Rome. It only became a major cultural center after it had conquered much of Europe and the Mediterranean. People have this silly notion that Rome dominated Europe due to its high culture, far from it. It was always austere, religious, stern and industrious. The Rome that unified the Italian states and conquered Spain and Carthage was not the one of grand monuments. If anything it was the brick and mortar, low rise try-hard cousin of Carthago Novo, Alexandria and Athens, an inferiority complex it wore as a chip on its shoulder. The Rome of grand bath houses, fantastic statues and edifices rose after it had conquered the civilized Mediterranean, only then did they let their hair down and invest their spoils on foreign fashions, luxuries and domestic monumental construction, albeit therein began their softening and eventual decline. Rome is no longer a major power, but the seeds of cultural projection were planted in those heady times and now the sustained fruits are still growing even without effort. Toronto has yet to achieve conclusive domestic supremacy to the level it needs (dominate Ontario politically [55-60% is a nice round number]), to focus on national and international obectives like soft power and cultural projection. Don't get me wrong, in terms of social life and internal cultural development, it is quite strong, but social life and cultural spheres of influence require different levels of focus and effort. Keep in mind i'm breaking this down into logical processes, but these things happen organically. When the time comes it too will happen for Toronto, organically, my illustrations are to better describe the phase that we are in and the way it will come to pass as it has for all those other cities.

[osmo]

I forget I am in Canada here in Toronto to be honest. This isn't a "Canadian city", it isn't "American" either. It just is its own thing. Toronto just has its own weird vibe that isn't American or Canadian. Montreal has more discreet Canadian nationalism creeping about from its old days. You see monuments, streets, buildings, etc that all are homages to Canada's past. I saw more Canadian flags flying in Montreal then I see here in Toronto. Its quite sad. Montreal has its own element, but I feel more in Canada because I have more historic references to it.


Princeess Gates is the most overt symbol of Canadian thing in Toronto and its hidden away from public view for the most part. I am not saying you need Canadian flags draped all over but its annoying when you see American flags, or International flags just as much as Canadian flags in the city. My hometown of Regina isn't draped in Canadiana either, but in the rest of Canada your greeted to typical Canadian charm among the people that is absent in Toronto. Winnipeg feels as comfy as Hamilton to me as far as the people go, same with Victoria, Kamloops ,or Red Deer.


As far as the media goes they are just cheap. Canadians are thrifty but it is even worse here in Canada and media makes a habit of treating Toronto's local scene as the default national scene. You would be surprised how much national TV faces and media types are nobody's here. They travel and they are celebrities but in Toronto nobody cares. National media is just to lazy to spread its roots and can generate enough coverage and content just sticking a mic and camera around Toronto. It dosn't help either that your two other major centers are conflicted with a language element in Montreal, or there is massive time difference. In the USA it is typically renationalized by time zones. NYC might be the hub but places like Atlanta or Chicago can easily be hubs for the central part of the United States while LA dominates the Pacific and Western blocks. There isn't that middle block present here in Canada. Calgary could be that but it doesn't have the ground work laid for it yet. CanWest always attempted to do this with Global out of Winnipeg but never got it going to full speed.

Also, again with USA comparisons, D.C. acts a massive counter balance to heavy NYC influence. NYC is just a hub and population base but more content actually flows out of the massiveness of D.C. and many American networks have their second largest hubs in D.C. for this very reason. Ottawa just doesn't compare for Canada as far as scale goes, IMO Montreal minus the language barriers could of easily acted as a counter balance but not anymore. Your left with Toronto being the only major media hub from Alberta all the way to Quebec.

But the end to get back the point the Canadian media is just bloody cheap. They would run all Toronto stories simply for cost reasons if they could.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by osmo

But the end to get back the point the Canadian media is just bloody cheap. They would run all Toronto stories simply for cost reasons if they could.

Or American stories...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Certainly. However, the ones that are also major cultural centres for their country also had moments in their history when they had already achieved their physical, economic and political objectives. London was a stuffy austere place in Victorian times and downright third world before those times, it only became a cultural power when it became an important economic and imperial center (it had already achieved its political objectives centuries before). The perfect analogy would be Ancient Rome. It only became a major cultural center after it had conquered much of Europe and the Mediterranean. People have this silly notion that Rome dominated Europe due to its high culture, far from it. It was always austere, religious, stern and industrious. The Rome that unified the Italian states and conquered Spain and Carthage was not the one of grand monuments. If anything it was the brick and mortar, low rise try-hard cousin of Carthago Novo, Alexandria and Athens, an inferiority complex it wore as a chip on its shoulder. The Rome of grand bath houses, fantastic statues and edifices rose after it had conquered the civilized Mediterranean, only then did they let their hair down and invest their spoils on foreign fashions, luxuries and domestic monumental construction, albeit therein began their softening and eventual decline. Rome is no longer a major power, but the seeds of cultural projection were planted in those heady times and now the sustained fruits are still growing even without effort. Toronto has yet to achieve conclusive domestic supremacy to the level it needs (dominate Ontario politically [55-60% is a nice round number]), to focus on national and international obectives like soft power and cultural projection. Don't get me wrong, in terms of social life and internal cultural development, it is quite strong, but social life and cultural spheres of influence require different levels of focus and effort. Keep in mind i'm breaking this down into logical processes, but these things happen organically. When the time comes it too will happen for Toronto, organically, my illustrations are to better describe the phase that we are in and the way it will come to pass as it has for all those other cities.

Character and culture take time to develop, and it should not be forgotten that Toronto is younger than European cities, NE US cities and also Montreal. Toronto is also very young when it comes to its role as national metropolis.

I do think Toronto is probably on the cusp of a true civic identity of the type that all large cities have.

But as for being a beacon of Canadian identity and culture I am not so sure. There are so many factors at play that always seem to restrain it from taking the bull by the horns. This one aspect of ''Toronto the Canadian Metropolis'' may not be an achievable one.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Among my French (from France) friends and acquaintances, basketball and hockey are probably neck and neck in popularity. I was surprised to see so many hockey fans in France. Almost all of them are in Northern France and the Alps and some of them follow the NHL. Amiens, Grenoble and Rouen are the best hockey markets in France. Basketball might be slightly more popular than hockey. I have just one friend who follows the NFL, and even the CFL. (that's particular because he has never been to Canada before)

Basketball is exponentially more popular in France than hockey is.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I find small-town Canada feels far more American than our big cities. When you're in Toronto and Montreal you know which country you're in, one foot in North America, one foot in the UK. I realize Montreal is bilingual but outwardly they do appear to have that same architectural and urban street vibe you get if you mix London with Brooklyn (Toronto a bit more London, Montreal a bit more Brooklyn). There's less visible economic and ethnic stratification as well. Waterloo, Kingston, Ottawa, and from what I've seen certainly the Prairies, have far more of an American vibe to them: football, small town fashion, ethnic mix, etc. Perhaps small town Canada feels that USA = New York / Chicago / LA and thus equate Canada's biggest city as being more American as a result.

The fact that you just said supporting Canadian football makes a place more "Americanized"...

[BretttheRiderFan]

I don't get this stuff about Toronto or any other city not feeling "Canadian".

What the hell does that mean? What makes a place "feel Canadian" to you?

Canada cannot be defined in an image or a particular place. Canada is a huge country of all sorts of cities and towns and peoples, and they are all equally Canadian. Toronto is no more or less Canadian than any other city out there.

And what the heck defines "Canadiana" and what doesn't?

And how in HELL can Ottawa not "feel Canadian" to somebody?

This entire conversation is just flabbergasting me.

I could care less how many people in your town are going to watch the Grey Cup this Sunday rather than watching a chick flick on Netflix, that doesn't make it any more or less Canadian.

We're more than a post-card, we're more than Dudley Do-Right.

We're not France, we're not Austria. We're Canada and one city doesn't dominate us and never will.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by esquire

In European countries it seems like it's the capital cities that drive that stuff. In Canada, our largest city mostly ignores them.

A lot of this might have to do with the fact that Toronto wasn't our primary city up until very recently ~ 1980. It was always big, but never had to take that leadership role when it came to our culture. Now that it's our de facto alpha city, we expect it to be a champion of all things Canadian but Toronto doesn't seem willing or able to take on that role.

Torontonians want to be Canada's alpha city, but haven't come to grips with the responsibilities that come along with that.

Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan

We're Canada and one city doesn't dominate us and never will.

That's true, but it's also important that our primary city show leadership and be a champion of our culture. If Toronto doesn't, who will? No other city is in a position to do that.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What about Americanized or American-focused, then?

Toronto may have tunnel vision for the US, but does that equate to being Americanized? If we're talking sports, all 4 big pro sports have deep Canadian roots so Toronto certainly isn't Americanized for playing baseball, football, basketball, or hockey. That we don't have a pro basketball league (sorry NBL) or a pro baseball league is just reality so Toronto joining the NBA and MLB is acceptable.

US focused? Yes. Americanized? No. These sports are part of Canada's culture whether people in some parts of the country realize it or not.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Among my French (from France) friends and acquaintances, basketball and hockey are probably neck and neck in popularity. I was surprised to see so many hockey fans in France. Almost all of them are in Northern France and the Alps and some of them follow the NHL. Amiens, Grenoble and Rouen are the best hockey markets in France. Basketball might be slightly more popular than hockey. I have just one friend who follows the NFL, and even the CFL. (that's particular because he has never been to Canada before)

Do people in France know about the CFL and do they assume (like most foreigners do) that we just imported football, basketball, and baseball from the United States?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I find small-town Canada feels far more American than our big cities.

I'd argue that small town Canada is where the old Canadian culture has remained largely intact and our big cities are drifting away from those Canadian norms. You see the same thing in big cities everywhere. In the UK, it's the small towns where British culture is strongest while London increasingly has more in common with other big global cities around the world.

When tourists and immigrants come to Canada, I always tell them to go to the small towns to get a true taste of our culture. Halifax, Sherbrooke, Guelph, Regina, Kamloops, etc. That's where you'll find our culture in its purest form and largely unchanged from the influences of globalization.

[BretttheRiderFan]

What is "our" culture though?

Why does Toronto need to change?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan

What is "our" culture though?

I always find it astonishing how Canadians don't know the answer to that basic question. Strangely, we omit anything that also exists in another country. By that definition, the only thing that is US culture is peach cobbler, NASCAR, and moonshining. Baseball can't be American coz those Canucks play it too! That Canadians use this absurd benchmark is endlessly puzzling. Perhaps Canadians watch too much US tv which tells them that their own culture is American.... and by extension, can't be Canadian culture as well. It's amazing that Canadians actually buy into that.

If you really need an answer, our culture is everything Canadians partake in: our traditions, institutions, customs, diversions, past times, pursuits, etc. So baseball, RVing, barbecuing, Thanksgiving, Remembrance Day, cottage life, football, burgers and fries, the Santa Claus Parade, Homecoming, basketball, Halloween, and thousands of other things like that.

I was born in the UK, and for me it's clear as day what Canadian culture is. This country has one of the most interesting, richest, and most engaging cultures I've come across. I'd take Canadian culture over British every day of the week.