New Downtown Calgary Arena - Page 96

Calgarian · #**1901** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 6:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Edmonton did a good job of ensuring path dependency for the decision through the council working/advisory/whatever group. There was no 'do nothing' alternative. The renovation alternative was costly enough to potentially be more expensive over the long term. The public accepted as fact that if nothing was done the Oilers would likely move.

That's the difference though, there is a do nothing option as the Saddledome could easliy last another 20 years, wuld probably just require a few million dollars to keep it going, and McMahon functions pretty well even though it's an eyesore. The Flames just want more revenue and are looking for the city and taxpayers to subsidize it for them, and not surprisingly, people don't have an appetite for that. It becomes especially clear when the cost of future transit in this city is factored in, I think it was $15 billion in 30 years?

Fuzz · #**1902** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 7:03 PM**

The city is going to be forced to throw hundreds of millions into fixing the roads there(perhaps over a billion, if they address Crowchild?). That's enough. I don't think we should be contributing to a building AND the infrastructure fixes required while we talk about the cheapest way to build an NCLRT. I consider myself one of the lucky ones who goes to a few Flames games a year. Average Calgarians will see more benefit with dollars going elsewhere.

suburbia · #**1903** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 7:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The city is going to be forced to throw hundreds of millions into fixing the roads there(perhaps over a billion, if they address Crowchild?). That's enough. I don't think we should be contributing to a building AND the infrastructure fixes required while we talk about the cheapest way to build an NCLRT. I consider myself one of the lucky ones who goes to a few Flames games a year. Average Calgarians will see more benefit with dollars going elsewhere.

Firepark is the way to go. Half of the issues go away. Remediation work would be way less for that area, in need to rejuvenation, than would be required for roads and the like in west village.

H.E.Pennypacker · #**1904** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 7:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The city is going to be forced to throw hundreds of millions into fixing the roads there(perhaps over a billion, if they address Crowchild?). That's enough. I don't think we should be contributing to a building AND the infrastructure fixes required while we talk about the cheapest way to build an NCLRT. I consider myself one of the lucky ones who goes to a few Flames games a year. Average Calgarians will see more benefit with dollars going elsewhere.

Agreed.

The Flames need to understand the cost that the City will incur to reconfigure the West Village roads and Crowchild if they're going that far (which I think they should) .. Then when you look at how much development is going on within the core in Downtown and the Beltline, what incentive are there for the City to fund a kickstarter for another area redevelopment? I don't see one.

The City is in a good position to stand strong against giving hand outs for a new downtown arena. That being said there has to be a middle ground somewhere here.

MichaelS · #**1905** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 7:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

Just fund the fucking thing publicly and get it under construction, as well as a new football stadium too... I'm sick and tired of the dog shit sports venues in this city!

You're more than welcome to take my taxes out of Cochrane for it too... I'd much rather fund that than a lot of the stupid shit my taxes go to now!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Apparently you and I are in the minority.

Nothing is stopping the two of you from writing a cheque to the Flames. Perhaps if all the people who feel the same as you did this, all of this debate would be a non-issue. Maybe the Flames can set-up a kickstarter campaign.

Calgarian · #**1906** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 8:12 PM**

Good article on the limitations of the Saddledome roof. Funny how they engineered it lower to save costs (less air volume to heat and cool) but it turns out to be costing the building millions in revenue from concerts.
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...kip-calgary-due-to-saddledomes-drawbacks

Also, good to see a Calgary forumer playing a big part in discussions with the Flames and setting the city's policy on the issue.

Full Mountain · #**1907** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 8:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Good article on the limitations of the Saddledome roof. Funny how they engineered it lower to save costs (less air volume to heat and cool) but it turns out to be costing the building millions in revenue from concerts.
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news...kip-calgary-due-to-saddledomes-drawbacks

Also, good to see a Calgary forumer playing a big part in discussions with the Flames and setting the city's policy on the issue.

Wouldn't the equivalent millions in renos fix both the roof and interior configuration they complain so much about?

Build a secondary structure around the existing one to support a secondary roof with a greater capacity and use the same structure that to create a wider concourse and reconfigure the seating. Time for the billionaires to stop pissing and moaning about how their million dollar investment isn't working out and make it work out.

Hell you don't see the regular joe asking the city for help to renovate their home because the basement isn't suited so they can make money.....

Calgarian · #**1908** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 8:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

Wouldn't the equivalent millions in renos fix both the roof and interior configuration they complain so much about?

Build a secondary structure around the existing one to support a secondary roof with a greater capacity and use the same structure that to create a wider concourse and reconfigure the seating. Time for the billionaires to stop pissing and moaning about how their million dollar investment isn't working out and make it work out.

Hell you don't see the regular joe asking the city for help to renovate their home because the basement isn't suited so they can make money.....

The roof is actually a pretty good feat of engineering, covering it up would be a shame. The roof is supported by steel cables, this is what limits the capacity. Adding a second roof would require removing the defining feature of the building as there is no space below to add the giant trusses most arenas use. Also, the building is not designed to support trusses as there is nothing to take the loads down to the foundation. This would basically require retrofitting the building in such a way that you might as well build a new one.

Old pic showing the steel cables before teh concrete panels went on.

http://www.cpci.ca/en/about_us/project_month/january_2013/

DizzyEdge · #**1909** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 9:29 PM**

You'd think you could create some sort of internal scaffolding structure that could be erected to hold what a ceiling would normally hold at concerts, and then removed afterwards.

Calgarian · #**1910** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 9:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

You'd think you could create some sort of internal scaffolding structure that could be erected to hold what a ceiling would normally hold at concerts, and then removed afterwards.

We're talking about hundreds of thousands of pounds here. The thing you have to remember is that when you support a load, there has to be a means to transport that weight down and into the ground. Scaffolding would require some form of foundation in order to do this, quite impossible considering they don't even melt the ice for a show and putting it somewhere in the seating area will block the view for many, many seats. Also keep in mind how low the roof of the dome is...

McMurph · #**1911** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 10:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

You'd think you could create some sort of internal scaffolding structure that could be erected to hold what a ceiling would normally hold at concerts, and then removed afterwards.

That sounds like it would be inviting a concert disaster of epic proportions. Maybe we can demo it at a Bieber show.

DizzyEdge · #**1912** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 10:47 PM**

For Bieber we can just throw something together from Ikea

suburbia · #**1913** Posted **Nov 26, 2014, 11:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The roof is actually a pretty good feat of engineering, covering it up would be a shame. The roof is supported by steel cables, this is what limits the capacity. Adding a second roof would require removing the defining feature of the building as there is no space below to add the giant trusses most arenas use. Also, the building is not designed to support trusses as there is nothing to take the loads down to the foundation. This would basically require retrofitting the building in such a way that you might as well build a new one.

Old pic showing the steel cables before teh concrete panels went on.

http://www.cpci.ca/en/about_us/project_month/january_2013/

That's a pretty impressive design - the cables, to a degree, add to the strength of the curved walls, keeping them together. Obviously they can hold their own weight, but still very cool.

Retrofitting that is a non-starter just from looking at this picture.

Jay in Cowtown · #**1914** Posted **Nov 27, 2014, 12:00 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Nothing is stopping the two of you from writing a cheque to the Flames. Perhaps if all the people who feel the same as you did this, all of this debate would be a non-issue. Maybe the Flames can set-up a kickstarter campaign.

How about you tell your buddy Naheed to give us our tax money back for that bullshit pedestrian bridge and that ridiculous street light pole near the airport... I'll personally go give the check directly to Ken King!

DizzyEdge · #**1915** Posted **Nov 27, 2014, 12:08 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

How about you tell your buddy Naheed to give us our tax money back for that bullshit pedestrian bridge and that ridiculous street light pole near the airport... I'll personally go give the check directly to Ken King!

Nenshi wasn't involved in the "peace" bridge at all, he wasn't even Mayor yet.

DizzyEdge · #**1916** Posted **Nov 27, 2014, 12:11 AM**

This is like discussions on the newspaper comment sections where people bitch about $25 million for the peace bridge, 11 mill for bike lanes, and 500k for the dumb blue ring as the cause of over 4 billion in debt when it amounts to less than 1%

PlanZ · #**1917** Posted **Nov 27, 2014, 12:12 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown

How about you tell your buddy Naheed to give us our tax money back for that bullshit pedestrian bridge and that ridiculous street light pole near the airport... I'll personally go give the check directly to Ken King!

You live in Cochring. What are you on about getting "your" money back?

speedog · #**1918** Posted **Nov 27, 2014, 12:46 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Nenshi wasn't involved in the "peace" bridge at all, he wasn't even Mayor yet.

Awaiting Jay in Cowtown's response to this.

On a side note, someone in another forum I frequent mentioned that one of the Flames owners owns a sizeable chunk of the Firepark property - don't if there's any truth to this but if true it could elevate Firepark as a possibility.

Policy Wonk · #**1919** Posted **Nov 27, 2014, 1:14 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedog

On a side note, someone in another forum I frequent mentioned that one of the Flames owners owns a sizeable chunk of the Firepark property - don't if there's any truth to this but if true it could elevate Firepark as a possibility.

Unless something has changed very recently, I don't believe that is the case.

Jay in Cowtown · #**1920** Posted **Nov 27, 2014, 3:20 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedog

Awaiting Jay in Cowtown's response to this.

lol, I'll make sure to have enough time to check Wikipedia before shooting off my mouth with rants I have no facts to back it with!

there, fair enough?

but regardless... FUND THE FUCKING THING!