YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by ACT7

It's worth mentioning here (and I'm not knocking YVR either - just being realistic) that on a global level it's a bit of a stretch to call YVR an AC hub. Mainline AC operates 8 year-round and 3 seasonal international destinations out of YVR. Rouge operates 2 mainline and 2 seasonal international destinations (I'm including confirmed future routes as well). As for the US, mainline AC/AC Express operates 3 year-round destinations and Rouge operates 3. Seasonal US is all Rouge and there are 3 destinations. If you look at domestic AC/AC Express ops out of YVR there are 24 destinations, most of which are Express to BC routes. So if you total this up, AC mainline and Rouge year-round and seasonal operate 15 international destinations out of YVR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver_International_Airport

While it may be nice and fluffy for AC to pander to the BOT audience that they were speaking to, when you look at true hubs globally, it's difficult to place YVR in that category. I don't dispute that YVR is either a mini-hub as was pointed out or a strong focus city for AC, or that growth is strong (it is indeed) but percentage growth needs context, and everyone knows what the context is.

And agreed as well. Am always wary of particular speeches to particular audiences... Tell 'em what they want to hear!
YVR is by no means any sort of global hub. But being the second biggest operational base for AC and AC labels it as such. Hard to gauge hubs by any particular measure. Interestingly DL labels SEA a "key" hub now and not even 100 daily departures yet... Even by next summer probably around the 120 mark with a significant amount of RJ ops still. Compared to other DL hubs.... That is a pittance. So I suppose YVR is much more important to AC than SEA is to DL.
Vancouver continues to be a very well served city as does SEA.

Flying to SIN again tomorrow on SQ... now there's a global hub of the best airline and the best airport in the world! And only keeps on getting better! :-)

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by ACT7

It's worth mentioning here (and I'm not knocking YVR either - just being realistic) that on a global level it's a bit of a stretch to call YVR an AC hub. Mainline AC operates 8 year-round and 3 seasonal international destinations out of YVR. Rouge operates 2 mainline and 2 seasonal international destinations (I'm including confirmed future routes as well). As for the US, mainline AC/AC Express operates 3 year-round destinations and Rouge operates 3. Seasonal US is all Rouge and there are 3 destinations. If you look at domestic AC/AC Express ops out of YVR there are 24 destinations, most of which are Express to BC routes. So if you total this up, AC mainline and Rouge year-round and seasonal operate 15 international destinations out of YVR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver_International_Airport

While it may be nice and fluffy for AC to pander to the BOT audience that they were speaking to, when you look at true hubs globally, it's difficult to place YVR in that category. I don't dispute that YVR is either a mini-hub as was pointed out or a strong focus city for AC, or that growth is strong (it is indeed) but percentage growth needs context, and everyone knows what the context is.

I agree with what you say, and that when it comes right down to it, Vancouver is an important focus city for AC (and for WJ too, it would seem)
However, this has led to what Calin Rovinescu warned against - YVR being
a "stub" airport with major airlines poking a route into the the city, if a strong central AC Vancouver hub is not developed. Yet.
(The ominous bang of a distant drum sounded ....)

Yet only KLM serves Amserdam, only Air New Zealand flies 777s five times a week to AKL, and only China Southern serves CAN, with ANA doing KIX and Haneda, not to mention AF starting Paris next season (and to continue year round if the demand is there)
Further, when you total it up, Though YVR funnels foreign passengers from Asia similarly to how YYZ funnels in European traffic, AC simply has not put the energy, for example, into developing a fuller coverage of major routes to US cities, as it has from YYZ>
> To SEA-TAC, PDX, SFO, LAX, SAN, DEN, PHX, DFW, IAH, MPS, ORD, MCI, and all the main East Coast cities from north to south, of course.

From Vancouver, (perhaps due to low load, low yield) most major US airports east of the Rockies, with several but few exceptions, are served by
Delta, United, American, US Air, Alaska.......

.... again, the spoke airport that Rovinescu warned against. And this is the man who says YVR must have a strong AC hub.

While it is true that YYZ is the great gateway to Canada, taking into consideration to upcoming TWOV at YVR, and Asian traffic being redirected through North America,
would it not be seemly (if the pax and yields are, or will be there) for AC to start offering flights to from YVR to Denver, Dallas, Houston, Minneapolis, Chicago, Atlanta, maybe even adding Orlando or Miami to the list?
Or is the demand and yield just not there?

Air Canada seems not to think so.

[ACT7]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I agree with what you say, and that when it comes right down to it, Vancouver is an important focus city for AC (and for WJ too, it would seem)
However, this has led to what Calin Rovinescu warned against - YVR being
a "stub" airport with major airlines poking a route into the the city, if a strong central AC Vancouver hub is not developed. Yet.
(The ominous bang of a distant drum sounded ....)

Yet only KLM serves Amserdam, only Air New Zealand flies 777s five times a week to AKL, and only China Southern serves CAN, with ANA doing KIX and Haneda, not to mention AF starting Paris next season (and to continue year round if the demand is there)
Further, when you total it up, Though YVR funnels foreign passengers from Asia similarly to how YYZ funnels in European traffic, AC simply has not put the energy, for example, into developing a fuller coverage of major routes to US cities, as it has from YYZ>
> To SEA-TAC, PDX, SFO, LAX, SAN, DEN, PHX, DFW, IAH, MPS, ORD, MCI, and all the main East Coast cities from north to south, of course.

From Vancouver, (perhaps due to low load, low yield) most major US airports east of the Rockies, with several but few exceptions, are served by
Delta, United, American, US Air, Alaska.......

.... again, the spoke airport that Rovinescu warned against. And this is the man who says YVR must have a strong AC hub.

While it is true that YYZ is the great gateway to Canada, taking into consideration to upcoming TWOV at YVR, and Asian traffic being redirected through North America,
would it not be seemly (if the pax and yields are, or will be there) for AC to start offering flights to from YVR to Denver, Dallas, Houston, Minneapolis, Chicago, Atlanta, maybe even adding Orlando or Miami to the list?
Or is the demand and yield just not there?

Air Canada seems not to think so.

YYZ is a strong J market given all the business traffic between Toronto and other cities. But even that aside, AC has to focus on where the numbers are, and the reality is that YYZ is within an couple hour's flight of about 100 million people. So the strategy of routing connecting US pax through YYZ will always be more of a focus than funneling passengers, even to Asia, through YVR.

Unfortunately I don't see AC attempting to funnel passengers from the US to YVR in the same way they do to YYZ.

Also, I'm in agreement with Johnny Aussie that DL calling SEA a hub is a stretch as well. Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I think airline execs have a tendency to label certain cities as hubs to continue receiving preferable treatment by the airport authority. It's just a constant dangling carrot of sorts. Remember, AC calls YYC a hub as well...

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by ACT7

YYZ is a strong J market given all the business traffic between Toronto and other cities. But even that aside, AC has to focus on where the numbers are, and the reality is that YYZ is within an couple hour's flight of about 100 million people. So the strategy of routing connecting US pax through YYZ will always be more of a focus than funneling passengers, even to Asia, through YVR.

Unfortunately I don't see AC attempting to funnel passengers from the US to YVR in the same way they do to YYZ.

Also, I'm in agreement with Johnny Aussie that DL calling SEA a hub is a stretch as well. Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I think airline execs have a tendency to label certain cities as hubs to continue receiving preferable treatment by the airport authority. It's just a constant dangling carrot of sorts. Remember, AC calls YYC a hub as well...

Yup.. Again agreed.

YVR is a relatively small market, lower yielding etc. YYZ is the financial centre of Canada with a huge high yielding market at its doorstep. YVR definitely punches well above its weight for its size and to a point it does have a pretty decent location geographically. And I'll say it again... VERY well served for a city it's size and location. It's growing fast, new routes and additional capacity being added all the time by AC and many others....

I don't understand the persistent questioning of why YVR isn't more of a "hub", "focus city" or whatever you want to call it.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Yup.. Again agreed.

YVR is a relatively small market, lower yielding etc. YYZ is the financial centre of Canada with a huge high yielding market at its doorstep. YVR definitely punches well above its weight for its size and to a point it does have a pretty decent location geographically. And I'll say it again... VERY well served for a city it's size and location. It's growing fast, new routes and additional capacity being added all the time by AC and many others....

I don't understand the persistent questioning of YVR isn't more of a "hub", "focus city" or whatever you want to call it.

I don't either. As far as Air Canada appears to be concerned it is.

What is a reasonable catchment area around Vancouver (BC, Alberta, Washington State, Oregon, California).

What is a reasonable catchment area around Toronto (Ontario, Quebec, New York State and most of the Eastern US). Just as I would not expect much California traffic to head to Asia via Toronto. I would not expect much Chicago traffic to head to Europe via Vancouver.

[Johnny Aussie]

According to Bloomberg it is.... In any event great PR for YVR.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/laguardia...rating-skies-P2SMELgqTA~lC4JyO8D0LA.html

Another version and a bit longer.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/where-are...orth-america-IT76AvuySNSFebCqR7u3qQ.html

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

According to Bloomberg it is.... In any event great PR for YVR.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/laguardia...rating-skies-P2SMELgqTA~lC4JyO8D0LA.html

Another version and a bit longer.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/where-are...orth-america-IT76AvuySNSFebCqR7u3qQ.html

Least frustrating airport in NA? Umm... Pretty low bar here, Johnny, lol.

Joking aside, the waiting time at immigration during peak times at YVR is an issue. I know, not controlled by the airport authority, but still... On the other hand, the set-up at security to scan boarding passes is under their control, and it's daft. One person scanning boarding passes at two adjacent lines? Better to go with the HKG model where boarding passes are scanned at the entrance to security.

Otherwise, yes, YVR would get my vote in this category...

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Least frustrating airport in NA? Umm... Pretty low bar here, Johnny, lol.

Joking aside, the waiting time at immigration during peak times at YVR is an issue. I know, not controlled by the airport authority, but still... On the other hand, the set-up at security to scan boarding passes is under their control, and it's daft. One person scanning boarding passes at two adjacent lines? Better to go with the HKG model where boarding passes are scanned at the entrance to security.

Otherwise, yes, YVR would get my vote in this category...

Hence my proviso... "According to Bloomberg". And yup... If we are going to compare worldwide... different ball game entirely.
It's like saying AC is the best airline in NA

In any event great PR for YVR. And it is usually a very good experience on my frequent visits... save for the early morning transborder experiences.

Flew in to SIN T3 on Sunday evening... Quite the hike this time even with the moving walkways...but breezed through immigration as always... bags already on the belt... That's the norm at Singapore. Best airport and airline (SQ) in the world in my opinion.

[teriyaki]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Hence my proviso... "According to Bloomberg". And yup... If we are going to compare worldwide... different ball game entirely.
It's like saying AC is the best airline in NA

In any event great PR for YVR. And it is usually a very good experience on my frequent visits... save for the early morning transborder experiences.

Flew in to SIN T3 on Sunday evening... Quite the hike this time even with the moving walkways...but breezed through immigration as always... bags already on the belt... That's the norm at Singapore. Best airport and airline (SQ) in the world in my opinion.

I've had my own set of snafu's at SIN upon deplaning and hitting a massive immigration queue thats only been beaten by yes.. the early morning transborder rush at YVR.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by teriyaki

I've had my own set of snafu's at SIN upon deplaning and hitting a massive immigration queue thats only been beaten by yes.. the early morning transborder rush at YVR.

Ha ha!! Yes have had the very rare snafu at SIN. But the "norm" at least 80 percent (on my 50+ arrivals there) of the time no wait whatsoever. T1 and T2 generally not as efficient than T3. My worst wait was probably 30 mins.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Hence my proviso... "According to Bloomberg". And yup... If we are going to compare worldwide... different ball game entirely.
It's like saying AC is the best airline in NA

In any event great PR for YVR. And it is usually a very good experience on my frequent visits... save for the early morning transborder experiences.

Flew in to SIN T3 on Sunday evening... Quite the hike this time even with the moving walkways...but breezed through immigration as always... bags already on the belt... That's the norm at Singapore. Best airport and airline (SQ) in the world in my opinion.

Prefer HKG myself, but I guess it comes down to personal preference. I must say SIN T3 is really nice... I'd add ICN to my list of favorites except my last trip it took me 2 hours to clear immigration.

When one looks at the Skytrax and other awards, YVR is in some pretty august company!

[Johnny Aussie]

The good news machine just keeps on rolling....

Per airlineroute.net http://airlineroute.net/2014/11/25/af-yvr-w15/

YVR-CDG will become a scheduled year-round route.

AF has just loaded its intention to extend YVR-CDG to year-round service with three weekly flights during the winter season after the first summer of 5 weekly flights conclude.

Flights will operate Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays on 772s.

[trofirhen]

Faaaantastic !!! And it all happened so fast !! Four major European destinations, now. We're smokin' !!!!!!

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Least frustrating airport in NA? Umm... Pretty low bar here, Johnny, lol.

Joking aside, the waiting time at immigration during peak times at YVR is an issue. I know, not controlled by the airport authority, but still... On the other hand, the set-up at security to scan boarding passes is under their control, and it's daft. One person scanning boarding passes at two adjacent lines? Better to go with the HKG model where boarding passes are scanned at the entrance to security.

Otherwise, yes, YVR would get my vote in this category...

YVR is one of the most pleasant to go through indeed, EXCEPT for domestic security. Truly one of the worst setups I have been through.

[cyeg66]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

The good news machine just keeps on rolling....

Per airlineroute.net http://airlineroute.net/2014/11/25/af-yvr-w15/

YVR-CDG will become a scheduled year-round route.

AF has just loaded its intention to extend YVR-CDG to year-round service with three weekly flights during the winter season after the first summer of 5 weekly flights conclude.

Flights will operate Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays on 772s.

Nice! Finally, scheduled service from France to western Canada year round. Long overdue in my opinion. Interested in seeing how the route performs.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

YVR is one of the most pleasant to go through indeed, EXCEPT for domestic security. Truly one of the worst setups I have been through.

In the A "westjet" wing, absolutely.

[vanlaw]

YVR really is a great airport to travel through. I've never had much issue with security whether it be transborder (can be a little slow at times, but nothing compared to domestic security at US airports), international or domestic (C gates).

My only gripe is the baggage handling/wait times. It is really unacceptable. I’ve landed many times on a domestic flight after midnight, the airport is dead and it can 25-40 min to get my bags. I just don't understand this. International is bad too. I came in from Frankfurt last week, it wasn't very busy for mid-day and it took 55 min for my bag to come, after I got to the belt (i.e already walked from the plane and cleared immigration). I realize it was just bad luck and my bag was near the end, but how can it take over an hour to clear a plane?

[craneSpotter]

Originally Posted by vanlaw

YVR really is a great airport to travel through. I've never had much issue with security whether it be transborder (can be a little slow at times, but nothing compared to domestic security at US airports), international or domestic (C gates).

My only gripe is the baggage handling/wait times. It is really unacceptable. I’ve landed many times on a domestic flight after midnight, the airport is dead and it can 25-40 min to get my bags. I just don't understand this. International is bad too. I came in from Frankfurt last week, it wasn't very busy for mid-day and it took 55 min for my bag to come, after I got to the belt (i.e already walked from the plane and cleared immigration). I realize it was just bad luck and my bag was near the end, but how can it take over an hour to clear a plane?

Yes it is. I use C gates and can't complain.

Hopefully when the new high-speed baggage system (upgrade) is finished the wait times should improve.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

The good news machine just keeps on rolling....

Per airlineroute.net http://airlineroute.net/2014/11/25/af-yvr-w15/

YVR-CDG will become a scheduled year-round route.

AF has just loaded its intention to extend YVR-CDG to year-round service with three weekly flights during the winter season after the first summer of 5 weekly flights conclude.

Flights will operate Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays on 772s.

I know I sound like a broken record but YVR is kicking ass right now!! And there's already promise from AC to boost its services at YVR in 2015. And lets add in the inevitable Chinese/Asian additions. And even maybe South America!

[Gordon]

YVR is a hub for Air Canada , they generate around 40% of the airport's traffic

Generally i find it quite efficient getting luggage although it took 45 mins to get my luggage returning from the us yesterday . there was a couple of Us flights & AC 's HK flight as well