PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX - Page 285

summersm343 · #**5681** Posted **Nov 24, 2014, 3:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Long time lurker here but this was a cool article on the topic from philly.com

http://mobile.philly.com/news/?wss=/philly/news/science/&id=281397261

Welcome to the forum!

Outta here · #**5682** Posted **Nov 24, 2014, 5:11 PM**

Was trying to catch up on some post reading . Maybe I'm a bit behind the times but , someone posted the new addition at the KOP mall would make it the largest
mall in America . Not according to Wikipedia . The Mall of America in Minnesota is
more than seven million sq. ft..... If true , that is one big 🞵🞵🞵 mall .

jhdiesel · #**5683** Posted **Nov 24, 2014, 5:55 PM**

KOP has more retail space, or something. MOA probably counts the amusement park in its total area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outta here

Was trying to catch up on some post reading . Maybe I'm a bit behind the times but , someone posted the new addition at the KOP mall would make it the largest
mall in America . Not according to Wikipedia . The Mall of America in Minnesota is
more than seven million sq. ft..... If true , that is one big 🞵🞵🞵 mall .

Philly Fan · #**5684** Posted **Nov 24, 2014, 5:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outta here

Was trying to catch up on some post reading . Maybe I'm a bit behind the times but , someone posted the new addition at the KOP mall would make it the largest
mall in America . Not according to Wikipedia . The Mall of America in Minnesota is
more than seven million sq. ft..... If true , that is one big 🞵🞵🞵 mall .

Quote:

This project will make King of Prussia Mall the largest official shopping mall in the United States (larger than Mall of America in overall square footage until its completed 'Phase II' expansion which will add an additional 5.6 million square feet of retail, hotel and entertainment options returning it to the distinction of the largest mall in the U.S.[9]), and it will be under one roof for the first time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Prussia_Mall

Also, as the Wikipedia article notes, KOP has been the largest mall in the country in terms of retail space for some time (a significant portion of MOA's space is devoted to an amusement park, etc.). I haven't taken the time to determine if that will still be true after both KOP and MOA have completed their latest additions.

sayitaintso · #**5685** Posted **Nov 24, 2014, 7:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

More on KOP for those interested, including the proposed SEPTA rail routes:

King of Prussia poised for burst of development

Amid the growth, King of Prussia is facing the reality that it must reinvent itself. The area is largely built out, a sprawl of big stores, parking lots, and not much room to expand.

The long-term future, officials hope, lies in a recently rezoned business park that will allow people to live near where they work, shop, and play - a development designed to feed young adults' appetites for urban-style convenience, where cars aren't necessary and home has a sense of community.

"I think that it is King of Prussia embracing its ultimate destiny as an edge city," said Matt Popek, a member of the Upper Merion Township Planning Commission.

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20..._of_development.html#VlyxUfbfI4L2VzSG.99

King of Prussia Development Projects
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/283596991.html

SEPTA Narrows Down Possible King of Prussia Rail Routes
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/283155091.html#YH1ULFGhgGsQCdMS.99

Oh great... more money for a low density suburban rail line.. when does the city get another subway line?! If this thing passes muster from a density standpoint necessary for funding the city should not have any problem qualifying. SEPTA needs to get their heads out of their asses and start focusing on increases infrastructure where it really matters..in the CITY!

cafeguy · #**5686** Posted **Nov 24, 2014, 7:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

Oh great... more money for a low density suburban rail line.. when does the city get another subway line?! If this thing passes muster from a density standpoint necessary for funding the city should not have any problem qualifying. SEPTA needs to get their heads out of their asses and start focusing on increases infrastructure where it really matters..in the CITY!

I wouldn't be all that extreme with those frustrations. New rail line anywhere from the city only strengthens the philly region. Plus, new subway lines downtown are pretty darn expensive from my understanding, especially in the dense urban streets of philly. Even so, I think more powerful changes won't come from "new subway lines". Instead, they would come from modifications of current rail lines and reusing defunct corridors in the city.

1. Rapid bus transit in the viaduct to service fairmount et al which doesn't have rapid transit.

2. New riverfront line to service southeast philly and the waterfront.

3. Purchase both the Philly Phlash bus loop and Patco to better integrate itself into the city's core transit usage by center city residents, not just tourists or people from jersey.

4. Reopen some stops along the regional rail lines (spring garden, girard, etc) to convert the regional rail into a more so "subway" style transit system connecting university city, temple, manyunk, and all those popular neighborhoods in between.

5. Extend the BSL to the navy yard

6. Reopen franklin station and spring garden station (spur)

7. Make buses operate better by introducing a number of smart ideas regarding limiting bus stop locations, better GPS apps, and smarter routes.

8. Rapid bus transit on roosevelt blvd.

All of the things above were talked about with real seriousness slightly before the recession or in recent months/years. If they move on any of these, that would be remarkable!

Kidphilly · #**5687** Posted **Nov 24, 2014, 8:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cafeguy

I wouldn't be all that extreme with those frustrations. New rail line anywhere from the city only strengthens the philly region. Plus, new subway lines downtown are pretty darn expensive from my understanding, especially in the dense urban streets of philly. Even so, I think more powerful changes won't come from "new subway lines". Instead, they would come from modifications of current rail lines and reusing defunct corridors in the city.

1. Rapid bus transit in the viaduct to service fairmount et al which doesn't have rapid transit.

2. New riverfront line to service southeast philly and the waterfront.

3. Purchase both the Philly Phlash bus loop and Patco to better integrate itself into the city's core transit usage by center city residents, not just tourists or people from jersey.

4. Reopen some stops along the regional rail lines (spring garden, girard, etc) to convert the regional rail into a more so "subway" style transit system connecting university city, temple, manyunk, and all those popular neighborhoods in between.

5. Extend the BSL to the navy yard

6. Reopen franklin station and spring garden station (spur)

7. Make buses operate better by introducing a number of smart ideas regarding limiting bus stop locations, better GPS apps, and smarter routes.

8. Rapid bus transit on roosevelt blvd.

All of the things above were talked about with real seriousness slightly before the recession or in recent months/years. If they move on any of these, that would be remarkable!

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zNG4WyRIq_Oo.k9otNCND6KcE

josef · #**5688** Posted **Nov 24, 2014, 10:03 PM**

RE:KOP

As a "millennial", or whatever, I'm always wary of things like this. Yes, it's great that people are thinking high density with ground floor retail, but when you build it in the middle of a mall parking lot, it's disingenuous at best. Like, look at the Voorhees Town Center they built on part of the Echelon Mall's parking lot. This is the "downtown"-esque part of the development:

It's totally fake, people still drive to it, and all the stores are mall-qualilty "upscale" 🞵🞵🞵🞵. And if you don't like that, you have no other non-car options. Here's its surrounding neighborhood:

It's still completely unwalkable. There's nothing bike friendly about it. Your 20 minute walk to the Ashland PATCO station includes bits with no sidewalks. This is not what every 20-something is clamoring for.

So, I'm always wary when someone plans for developments like this thinks like, "Oh yeah, millennials will just love living in a parking lot surrounded by highways and roads with no sidewalks. It's the urban dream!"

McBane · #**5689** Posted **Nov 25, 2014, 1:47 AM**

^ Well said.

Busy Bee · #**5690** Posted **Nov 25, 2014, 2:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by josef

...This is not what every 20-something is clamoring for.

So, I'm always wary when someone plans for developments like this thinks like, "Oh yeah, millennials will just love living in a parking lot surrounded by highways and roads with no sidewalks. It's the urban dream!"

I'm not sure what age has to do with any of this. I don't think anyone of any age naturally clamor for such conditions. I'm part of the last few years of GenX and I have the exact same opinion. Urbanism is an idea who's time has again come, it's not happening because millennials think its cool.

hammersklavier · #**5691** Posted **Nov 25, 2014, 2:56 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by josef

RE:KOP

As a "millennial", or whatever, I'm always wary of things like this. Yes, it's great that people are thinking high density with ground floor retail, but when you build it in the middle of a mall parking lot, it's disingenuous at best. Like, look at the Voorhees Town Center they built on part of the Echelon Mall's parking lot. This is the "downtown"-esque part of the development:

It's totally fake, people still drive to it, and all the stores are mall-qualilty "upscale" 🞵🞵🞵🞵. And if you don't like that, you have no other non-car options. Here's its surrounding neighborhood:

It's still completely unwalkable. There's nothing bike friendly about it. Your 20 minute walk to the Ashland PATCO station includes bits with no sidewalks. This is not what every 20-something is clamoring for.

So, I'm always wary when someone plans for developments like this thinks like, "Oh yeah, millennials will just love living in a parking lot surrounded by highways and roads with no sidewalks. It's the urban dream!"

You wanna know what the worst irony is? The PATCO line is right there! Like, if they really cared they would've looked to partner with PATCO for a new Voorhees/Echelon station. They just care about the image, not the reality.

Frontst17 · #**5692** Posted **Nov 25, 2014, 3:06 AM**

It may not be the popular opinion but i know quite a few people working in KOP who commute from West Philly, Center City, etc. They often have to take more than one bus to get there and having a rail line would certainly help and there are also shuttles from Chinatown to the VF casino. As far as the mall itself on any given day you will here 7-10 different languages and not all of them are locals. I believe it is a much larger tourist draw than people know and if people can get from their hotels in Philly to the shopping mecca of the U.S. by hopping on a state of the art shuttle they will. I believe the market is there.

That all being said... if its handled and executed poorly it could be a huge failure. Also we don't necessarily want to take away from the booming retail market in the city.

ScreamShatter · #**5693** Posted **Nov 25, 2014, 2:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I'm not sure what age has to do with any of this. I don't think anyone of any age naturally clamor for such conditions. I'm part of the last few years of GenX and I have the exact same opinion. Urbanism is an idea who's time has again come, it's not happening because millennials think its cool.

I don’t think urbanism is happening because “millennials think it’s cool.” But let’s be honest – the Millennial Generation is twice the size of Gen X and there is power in numbers. It’s no coincidence that Philadelphia’s population growth has corresponded with Millennials entering and leaving college. Even a lot of the new construction and new apartments in the city are being outfitted to target Millennials (NPR did a great story about this at one point).

Outta here · #**5694** Posted **Nov 25, 2014, 3:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I'm not sure what age has to do with any of this. I don't think anyone of any age naturally clamor for such conditions. I'm part of the last few years of GenX and I have the exact same opinion. Urbanism is an idea who's time has again come, it's not happening because millennials think its cool.

Agreed ; I'm just not sure how long it will take to " fix " some of the current
problems . I won't go into my list of what I feel is wrong but , I guess ( on the Jersey side of the river ) all you have to see is the difference between a small town like Collingwood and the Voorhees ( downtown ) model . There are plenty of
other communities in Pa. that mirror the difference between the above mentioned
towns . And like you mentioned , millennials didn't change the " walkability " of
places like Collingwood , Haddenfield , Moorestown , or a half dozen other towns
that have maintained that " personal access atmosphere " . It takes a lot more
than one class or age group to make a community worth it's weight .

josef · #**5695** Posted **Nov 25, 2014, 4:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I'm not sure what age has to do with any of this. I don't think anyone of any age naturally clamor for such conditions. I'm part of the last few years of GenX and I have the exact same opinion. Urbanism is an idea who's time has again come, it's not happening because millennials think its cool.

Oh, they specifically call out "millennials" three times in the article at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20...of_development.html#VlyxUfbfI4L2VzSG.99:

Quote:

"Millennials, adults born after 1982, are driving mixed-use development. In general, they aren't interested in the backyards and car culture of suburban America. Instead, they want "connection and community," said Holton, who said there was an effort to shift development in that direction throughout Montgomery County.

One millennial at the rail-extension public meeting, 25-year-old Krista Guerrieri, currently commutes by bus from Philadelphia to King of Prussia."

...

"Without it, millennials lose the ability to ditch their cars, and more density without public transportation would exacerbate road congestion."

Quote:

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

You wanna know what the worst irony is? The PATCO line is right there! Like, if they really cared they would've looked to partner with PATCO for a new Voorhees/Echelon station. They just care about the image, not the reality.

Right?! And they advertise this like crazy on PATCO itself.