General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[HooverDam]

Sun Merc isn't the Suns practice facility, the practice facility is in the arena itself. They have a single court hidden undernear the bleachers, I've been in it, its small. Sun Merc used to be a gym, but its now just a storage shed.

The Suns practice facility is probably not up to NBA standards anymore, even ASU has a nicer, multi court facility.

I still think we're years away from USAC needing to be replaced, but Sarver is starting to beat the drum now so that in 5 years people will think "oh yah its sooo old, it has to be replaced!"

If and when its replaced, lets all hope the Suns play a season or two in Glendale and then move back to the same site.

Also, if we're talking a major arena project, and thus digging big holes downtown lets add these things to the list:

* Demolish the Convention Center South Building
* Demolish the Garage Mahal
If we still need some of that convention space (I'm not sure this is the case) build it solely in subterranean halls connecting to the current under ground hall. Running from 3rd St to 7th St, Washington to Jefferson. Open up the ground level for high rise development that the City can put RFPs on and basically give the land away for free.

* Underground the LRT through downtown. In an ideal world, 50 years out, the LRT will be a subway from Central/Camelback through downtown. That way trains can run high speed express.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

* Underground the LRT through downtown. In an ideal world, 50 years out, the LRT will be a subway from Central/Camelback through downtown. That way trains can run high speed express.

I don't see them demoing the south hall, but I love the above idea!

[combusean]

^ The North building was built in preparation for an eventual demolition of the South Building. The south underground exhibition wall was purposely thinly shored and needs regular inspection, but it may happen someday.

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by combusean

^ The North building was built in preparation for an eventual demolition of the South Building. The south underground exhibition wall was purposely thinly shored and needs regular inspection, but it may happen someday.

Has anyone ever been in the North Building in one of the convention halls when the trucks drive by? The entire thing rattles and shakes so badly it sounds like there is an earthquake and the lights are going to fall. Happened every few minutes during the 3 hours we were there and it was so loud. Sad since it is new, but wouldn't surprise me if the people putting these big conferences on take note on future bookings.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I don't see them demoing the south hall, but I love the above idea!

as Sean said, the South hall is supposed to be demolished at some point, with the underground area designed to expand. I just don't know if there will ever be demand to rebuild the above ground convention space as we can't come close to filling what we have now.

[MegaBass]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Sun Merc isn't the Suns practice facility, the practice facility is in the arena itself. They have a single court hidden undernear the bleachers, I've been in it, its small. Sun Merc used to be a gym, but its now just a storage shed.

The Suns practice facility is probably not up to NBA standards anymore, even ASU has a nicer, multi court facility.

I still think we're years away from USAC needing to be replaced, but Sarver is starting to beat the drum now so that in 5 years people will think "oh yah its sooo old, it has to be replaced!"

Thanks for the clarification Hoover.

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

What is the league standard for practice sites, if you happen to know? Are they always adjacent to the main arena? Could something like that be incorporated into a basement?

The standard in the NBA as new practice facilities have been opened up across the league has become two full-sized courts.

New Orleans Pelicans 50,000 sq ft facility

Brooklyn Nets are turning a building that's about 3 miles away from Barclays Center (2012) into a 70,000 sq ft facility.

Chicago Bulls just opened 60,000 st ft Advocate Center that's located next to the United Center (1994). Previously they had a facility in the suburbs (Deerfield) which prevented the players from living downtown.

Minnesota Timberwolves new practice facility will be adjacent to the Target Center (1990)

Indiana Pacers facility is housed within Bankers Life Fieldhouse (1999). Same deal with Memphis Grizzlies at FedExForum (2004) and Orlando Magic at Amway Center (2010). The Washington Wizards is looking to relocate from their small court in the Verizon Center (1997) to the suburbs. Both the Golden State Warriors and Sacramento Kings both plan to include practice facilities in their new downtown arenas.

Philadelphia Sixers will have the league's largest facility at 120,000 sq ft about 8 miles from Wells Fargo Center (1996).

[PHX31]

I remember when AWA first opened and everyone hailed how awesome the included practice court was for the Suns.

I also remember going to at least one event at AWA before the Suns even played their first game and how much in awe I was of the place.

Of course, all this means is that time marches on and that was a long time ago.

It would be horrendous if the Suns built a new arena somewhere else. After everything that was lost to build the new arena for the Suns in the early 90s, and as intertwined into downtown as they are. Hopefully they just expand/renovate like crazy at the current location if necessary.

[PHXFlyer11]

How cool would it be to have the Arena redeveloped on the same location, and then have a mixed-use project on the empty lot across the street. This could be a USAplace type development with a W hotel, practice facility, more restaurants, spa, and possibly condos/apartments.

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

How cool would it be to have the Arena redeveloped on the same location, and then have a mixed-use project on the empty lot across the street. This could be a USAplace type development with a W hotel, practice facility, more restaurants, spa, and possibly condos/apartments.

I like this idea. I wonder how many players or people associated with the team, if any, would buy a unit in any future development like this to have something so close. Don't a few own places at Copper Summit?

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

How cool would it be to have the Arena redeveloped on the same location, and then have a mixed-use project on the empty lot across the street. This could be a USAplace type development with a W hotel, practice facility, more restaurants, spa, and possibly condos/apartments.

I think it would be great to incorporate sports-themed attractions in whatever is developed on the Colliers/CityScape lot. I know it's cheesy, but a mixed use hotel/condo tower with something like an ESPN zone and CityTarget occupying 1/3, with a Legends Square memorial park occupying another 1/3, and finally event and museum space occupying the remainder would be a great use of the space, IMO. As I mentioned, I don't know if a W will ever return to the talking table given the financial problems they've faced in more word class cities, but something simpler like an AC Marriott or even Aloft would be fine. All in all, this could really be a major tie into the "legends entertainment district," and make the whole thing actually make sense as a downtown district rather than a money-making ad ploy.

Just for fun, my updated "dream vision" for the area:



The again, as Hoover mentioned, it's all about demand. There is SO much land in the immediate area ripe for development that is just sitting there - even with an arena reno, I'm not sure there would be the demand for any kind of development. I mean, there's empty hotel pads on both the USAC and Colliers lots right now, the space surrounding the abandoned/mauled St James, and the space surrounding the Barrister properties.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

I think it would be great to incorporate sports-themed attractions in whatever is developed on the Colliers/CityScape lot. I know it's cheesy, but a mixed use hotel/condo tower with something like an ESPN zone and CityTarget occupying 1/3, with a Legends Square memorial park occupying another 1/3, and finally event and museum space occupying the remainder would be a great use of the space, IMO. As I mentioned, I don't know if a W will ever return to the talking table given the financial problems they've faced in more word class cities, but something simpler like an AC Marriott or even Aloft would be fine. All in all, this could really be a major tie into the "legends entertainment district," and make the whole thing actually make sense as a downtown district rather than a money-making ad ploy.

Just for fun, my updated "dream vision" for the area:



The again, as Hoover mentioned, it's all about demand. There is SO much land in the immediate area ripe for development that is just sitting there - even with an arena reno, I'm not sure there would be the demand for any kind of development. I mean, there's empty hotel pads on both the USAC and Colliers lots right now, the space surrounding the abandoned/mauled St James, and the space surrounding the Barrister properties.

Honestly man, please send this to the city. I feel like Tempe thinks about these things and would be on top of this, Phoenix, not so much.

They key here is that they can essentially fund this project by RFQ with developers and providing leasing and tax incentives. I know that nobody at the city of Phoenix has such a grand vision though. Maybe you would spark someone to start thinking at the very least!!!

[PHXFlyer11]

Also, there is a group with a FB page called This Could Be PHX. I'm sure they would post your idea and it would get exposure.

[Jjs5056]

Thanks.

I know it's easy to sit back and play The Sims, and there's a ton of factors that just seem to be pushing against such a city every developing. Many of the city's RFPs actually go unanswered, and even the ones that draw attention have at most 1-2 respondents. And, as we saw with Central Station, it's not the game-changing proposals that are chosen... it's typically the safer alternatives that keep the city in that middle-of-the-pack zone.

Most importantly, I wish there was just some support - and ultimately planning - for the area so that everything is built with a final goal in mind, rather than becoming a combination of mega-developments that have no sense of place. We've already seen how that can hurt the built environment with CityScape and its inward-facing design that ignored any chance at building synergies with the developments around it. I would hate to see such a design duplicated on the remaining block.

With "Legends Entertainment District" in place, there should be a distinct vision for the way the 'district' ultimately develops, and it's unfortunate that it's merely a moniker for ad revenues because bringing in attractions that are sports-related (such as event spaces, parks, museums, HOFs, etc.) are the type that 1) make perfect sense for the area, and 2) ultimately bring the community's support and patronage.

It's a similar problem with the warehouse district. With a vision and plan in mind, maybe the Madison and St. James would still stand today and be ripe for redevelopment into the gateway projects they deserved to be. There are so many hidden gems and solid bones in the immediate vicinity of USAC that a small, defined warehouse district is still possible. But, as more cheap properties are scooped up by companies like the Medical Training Center, the chance of that happening becomes slimmer and slimmer. It's unfortunate. Just look at the Chambers Warehouse, which would make terrific lofts or at least boutique retail under the current offices and would look fantastic with a modern loft addition; or, the crumbling warehouses adjacent to the Dudley Ventures rehab which could look absolutely stunning and be incredible nightlife spots, but are more likely to be torn down.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

Here's the webcam:

http://oxblue.com/open/ryancompanies/marinaheights

Thanks, man! Looking good. I'm moving back to Northern Virginia next month but, since I was born and lived half my life in Arizona, I will be reading these forums from afar and staying up to date. I came back here in 2012 so this has been a short stay but some good things have happened. Especially in Tempe. Tempe is doing it right.

As I leave, here's my wish list for Arizona for the next ten years as far as development goes:

1. Downtown Phoenix and Tucson both finally get new tallest(s). Phoenix could really, really use a signature tower. It makes me cringe a bit when I read that Tyson's Corner, VA (hotspot of activity in NoVa) is getting a new 470' tower and it will be one of 12 new hi-rises in that area which already has like 30,000,000 sq ft of space. Not comparing the nation's capital's affluent 'burbs with anything, let alone Arizona, but, come on, Phoenix needs something to reflect its stature. How about a nice 600' a bit north of the FAA restricted area (i.e., north of Chase Tower). Please????

Prediction: 4-8 new towers ranging from 250' to 450'. No tallest. Please prove me wrong.

Likewise, Tucson needs another 20+ story tower. Don't need to go the many, many reasons why it would be nice...but I'll give you one anyway, hehe: to hide the *hideous* "green tile" building. Yeah, you know the one. Very well might be the ugliest building in America. Ugh.

Prediction: A new tallest at 25 stories and 350'. Mixed use. As small as DT Tucson is, it has quite a bit more charm that Phoenix. They are playing on it nicely. I see a lot of in-fill and low- and mid-rise. One more hi-rise though: a 20-22 story "signature" DT hotel.

2. Widening of I-10 to four lanes each direction between Phoenix and Tucson. Seriously dangerous interstate. Maybe some better advance warning technology for the (now) routine haboobs?

Prediction: 3 lanes each direction. Helps but preventable accidents due to congestion continues to increase. 6.8 million people (by then) between the two cities and only six lanes to service them. Not getting it done.

3. Tempe continues its ascension to "destination" core for business and pleasure. Tempe's decision to build the Town Lake back in '93 or '94 (I think...anyway, I was here for that) has and is paying huge divvies. Vision. It matters.

Prediction: too hard to tell. Probably another 10-15 mid- and hi-rise buildings go up. 3.5 millions square feet of office space added. ASU finally wins a national championship in football with the killer new stadium.

4. More concerted effort to diversify the economy from growth-reliant to sustainable knowledge- and high-tech-based growth. Tax incentives for in-fill development to eliminate dormant space.

Prediction: Phoenix makes progress but still relies far too much on growth to drive the economy. It gets better but not fast enough. Home prices crash again then rebound again. Again, 2x to 3x the magnitude of the rest of the country through the next boom/bust cycle.

5. Renovation of Chase Field. It's a behemoth and outdated way ahead of schedule. That giant carcass would look out of place in DT Houston or Dallas let alone Phoenix. It's so incredibly disproportionate.

Prediction: Major renovations/retro-fitting to better integrate into overall DT look/feel and successful in diminishing its true scale. Make it look like a ballpark and not a beached spaceship. Done for $50 million. D-backs win another championship. Just because.

6. Aggressive move toward solar energy and newer materials technologies decreases heat island impact to Phoenix summers.

Prediction: Not fast enough. Average temps continue to climb. Summer is now officially (okay, not *officially*) April to October with mean high temps in that period right around 100 degrees. Wear your sunscreen.

7. Population growth is significantly less than the average growth over the last six or seven decades. Increasing at much greater decreasing rate. Shockingly so.

Prediction: Maricopa county grows from 4.3 million in 2015 to 4.7 million in 2025. Phoenix grows from 1.5 million in 2015 to 1.8 million in 2025.

8. A destination water park is finally built somewhere around Phoenix. Seriously, the Valley of the Sun should have the absolute best water park in the world. All solar-powered of course.

Prediction: No signature water theme park. At least not one to write home about. Just doesn't seem to happen.

9. Climate change continues to get more severe and rain becomes increasingly rare but when it does rain it's more severe.

Prediction: 2-3 storms per year, max, produce 85% of the annual rainfall in Phoenix.

10. Cardinals win 2 NFL championships! Suns do not.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

2. Widening of I-10 to four lanes each direction between Phoenix and Tucson. Seriously dangerous interstate. Maybe some better advance warning technology for the (now) routine haboobs?

Prediction: 3 lanes each direction. Helps but preventable accidents due to congestion continues to increase. 6.8 million people (by then) between the two cities and only six lanes to service them. Not getting it done.

Isn't this already in the works and currently under construction?

You're right, driving to/from Tucson is unbearable in the section that's only 2 lanes each way.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by nickw252

Isn't this already in the works and currently under construction?

You're right, driving to/from Tucson is unbearable in the section that's only 2 lanes each way.

I don't doubt that it is. It's 3 lanes each from Tucson to near Picacho Peak I think. But, yeah, it's already past capacity at three lanes both ways now so why not go to four? And while we're at it. Keep all trucks in the far right lane. Seems like it's always a big truck involved in these non-haboob accidents.

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

I don't doubt that it is. It's 3 lanes each from Tucson to near Picacho Peak I think. But, yeah, it's already past capacity at three lanes both ways now so why not go to four? And while we're at it. Keep all trucks in the far right lane. Seems like it's always a big truck involved in these non-haboob accidents.

And while we're at it, after they add the 4th lane lets throw in high speed rail to really reduce congestion.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by rocksteady

And while we're at it, after they add the 4th lane lets throw in high speed rail to really reduce congestion.

I know this isn't the transit thread, but what's the latest on commuter rail? Did they decide on the route?

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by rocksteady

And while we're at it, after they add the 4th lane lets throw in high speed rail to really reduce congestion.

Color me impressed if that ever happens!

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I know this isn't the transit thread, but what's the latest on commuter rail? Did they decide on the route?

Are you talking about commuter rail or the high speed train between Tucson and Phoenix? AFAIK, they have not chosen a final alignment for the latter. There is a pretty big difference between the two things, not trying to be nitpicky... but, because commuter rail is so far off in the future, the route options became kind of a hybrid to try and kill two birds with one stone. Very similar to how some of the LRT lines will run in highways medians like commuter rail, when they'd be much more successful as light rail lines if they were kept on-grade.