O-Train Line 2 [Stage 1 | Bayview to Greenboro] | In Service

[FFX-ME]

In the case of the O-train though, the Trillium line definitely should interline with the confederation line since everyone would have to transfer to get to downtown, it's a line that goes from nowhere to nowhere. Unless, of course, it is expanded to Gatineau but that line could be interlined with the Trillium line as well.

[FFX-ME]

Here is my vision of a really simple modification of the current LRT plan which would significantly increase the ridership by:

- interlining the trillium line to have a direct link to downtown, which would also increase the number of trains servicing the core

-Have a third short line (1 extra station) using the existing railway bridge to connect to Gatineau. The geometry I have put here would also allow for the planned Bayview station to keep it's current form after the interlining is complete by passing the Gatineau line trains where the Trillium ones are planned for.



What do you guys think. This way, the STO may be allowed to maintain the Gatineau line and expand it in the future as they see fit and OC Transpo could manage the other two.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Here is my vision of a really simple modification of the current LRT plan which would significantly increase the ridership by:

- interlining the trillium line to have a direct link to downtown, which would also increase the number of trains servicing the core

-Have a third short line (1 extra station) using the existing railway bridge to connect to Gatineau. The geometry I have put here would also allow for the planned Bayview station to keep it's current form after the interlining is complete by passing the Gatineau line trains where the Trillium ones are planned for.



What do you guys think. This way, the STO may be allowed to maintain the Gatineau line and expand it in the future as they see fit and OC Transpo could manage the other two.

Not a bad idea. Similar thoughts and designs get presented regularly in these threads:

The future of Ottawa's Transit
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=140075

Dream Transit Plan
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=177259

O-Train Updates
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=207127

[ACmodels]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Here is my vision of a really simple modification of the current LRT plan which would significantly increase the ridership by:

- interlining the trillium line to have a direct link to downtown, which would also increase the number of trains servicing the core

-Have a third short line (1 extra station) using the existing railway bridge to connect to Gatineau. The geometry I have put here would also allow for the planned Bayview station to keep it's current form after the interlining is complete by passing the Gatineau line trains where the Trillium ones are planned for.



What do you guys think. This way, the STO may be allowed to maintain the Gatineau line and expand it in the future as they see fit and OC Transpo could manage the other two.

I can't see this happening. As the Trillium Line is a DMU Train while the Confederation Line is an EMU Train. What I would do is just extend the Trillium line to Gatineau. But what I think would be really cool is that we create a third line called the Airport Line that would have 3 or 4 stations (South Keys, EY Center, Lester, Airport) so Riverside south and Barrhaven can still get 8 minute service than 16 minute service.

[FFX-ME]

I would rather extend the Trillium line to the airport since the current phase 2 project won't reach Barhaven anyway and I don't think it would make sense to have 2 trasfers to get to the airport from downtown. If the Trillium line was interlined with the confederation line (once electrified) and go down to the airport it wouldn't be necessary to transfer. It was just a thought since, once the other line is electrified, it would be a very cheap way to significantly improve the use of the system.

[eternallyme]

I agree re: the Gatineau extension but it should have two stations: one near the wye (with a walking connection to UQO and Tache) and one farther east in the abandoned Domtar site on Tache (where the tracks end) across from Terrasses de la Chaudiere.

Instead of the third line, I would just extend the (then-misnamed) Trillium Line northward across the Prince of Wales Bridge.

[ACmodels]

But would the city of Gatinau approve of what your proposing I really don't think so.

[Dado]

There's never been any objection in principle to Ottawa extending the O-Train across to Gatineau.

The concern STO has with it is if doing so would be used to eliminate its own buses into downtown Ottawa. If an O-Train extension was simply to eliminate OC Transpo's buses in Hull - which is basically all it could do, realistically - then STO and Gatineau would have no objection. Indeed, from STO's perspective it might even increase its own ridership as an easy transfer to the O-Train would provide good transit options for Gatineau residents to places like Tunney's Pasture, Booth Street and Confederation Heights that they currently don't have.

Unfortunately the City of Ottawa has long used that concern as an excuse not to extend the O-Train.

[Aylmer]

An O-Train extension to Hull would probably be well-used by Ottawans, but it would be a hassle for people in Gatineau.

Case in point: if I live in Buckingham, I need to take a bus to the Rapibus, the Rapibus to Hull, then backtrack 2 km on an O-Train in order to transfer to LRT. Assuming 8 and 3 minute headway at rush hour, that means that from Hull, you will spend an average of about 6 minutes just waiting for your transfers versus about 5 actually in a vehicle. I'm a big proponent of transfers for a variety of reasons, but that's just a silly ratio.

The PoW bridge is simply too out of the way and the fact that it would require an absolute minimum of two transfers isn't ideal to say the least.

There are some solutions though (though none ideal):

1. Have a line which runs from Hull to Bayview to Downtown. You eliminate a transfer, but it's still a pretty significant backtrack for people coming from anywhere but Aylmer (which, granted, represents a very sizeable portion of commuters to Ottawa from Gatineau)

2. Have Gatineau build LRT through Hull, then across the Alexandra to terminate at the Plaza (Rideau/Wellington) Bridge. In terms of cost-benefit, I think this is the most desirable option, being both relatively cheap (no new bridges or tunnels) and largely eliminating backtracking and even doing away with transferring for people working east of Bank, but a transfer at Rideau would be inelegant and it would be politically delicate.

3. Build LRT on the Portage Bridge, then have it tunnel into the escarpment by the Park of the Provinces to join up with the DOTT. This option eliminates the double-transfer, but interlining isn't ideal, especially since the peak frequencies will be so high in the tunnel and the NCC would have a fit.

4. Bite the bullet and build the Bank St. subway with an extension under the river to Hull. Though in all probability this would be ungodly expensive (though it's worth pointing out that the Ottawa River behind Parliament is a lot less deep than people imagine), it would be the quickest, most direct route, eliminating all backtracking and insuring a solid connection between the cores. In an 'unlimited funding' scenario, this would be the ideal option by far.


I've thought a lot about this and I haven't found any solution that makes everyone happy. But, all things considered, I think that option 2 is the best available/plausible.

[ACmodels]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

An O-Train extension to Hull would probably be well-used by Ottawans, but it would be a hassle for people in Gatineau.

Case in point: if I live in Buckingham, I need to take a bus to the Rapibus, the Rapibus to Hull, then backtrack 2 km on an O-Train in order to transfer to LRT. Assuming 8 and 3 minute headway at rush hour, that means that from Hull, you will spend an average of about 6 minutes just waiting for your transfers versus about 5 actually in a vehicle. I'm a big proponent of transfers for a variety of reasons, but that's just a silly ratio.

The PoW bridge is simply too out of the way and the fact that it would require an absolute minimum of two transfers isn't ideal to say the least.

There are some solutions though (though none ideal):

1. Have a line which runs from Hull to Bayview to Downtown. You eliminate a transfer, but it's still a pretty significant backtrack for people coming from anywhere but Aylmer (which, granted, represents a very sizeable portion of commuters to Ottawa from Gatineau)

2. Have Gatineau build LRT through Hull, then across the Alexandra to terminate at the Plaza (Rideau/Wellington) Bridge. In terms of cost-benefit, I think this is the most desirable option, being both relatively cheap (no new bridges or tunnels) and largely eliminating backtracking and even doing away with transferring for people working east of Bank, but a transfer at Rideau would be inelegant and it would be politically delicate.

3. Build LRT on the Portage Bridge, then have it tunnel into the escarpment by the Park of the Provinces to join up with the DOTT. This option eliminates the double-transfer, but interlining isn't ideal, especially since the peak frequencies will be so high in the tunnel and the NCC would have a fit.

4. Bite the bullet and build the Bank St. subway with an extension under the river to Hull. Though in all probability this would be ungodly expensive (though it's worth pointing out that the Ottawa River behind Parliament is a lot less deep than people imagine), it would be the quickest, most direct route, eliminating all backtracking and insuring a solid connection between the cores. In an 'unlimited funding' scenario, this would be the ideal option by far.


I've thought a lot about this and I haven't found any solution that makes everyone happy. But, all things considered, I think that option 2 is the best available/plausible.

Option 2 may seem the cheapest but I can see some challenges already. The LRT would have to be elevated or an even cheaper option is just have it as a streetcar line operated by STO. But as it seems now most on the money spent on transit is on RapiBus.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

An O-Train extension to Hull would probably be well-used by Ottawans, but it would be a hassle for people in Gatineau.

Case in point: if I live in Buckingham, I need to take a bus to the Rapibus, the Rapibus to Hull, then backtrack 2 km on an O-Train in order to transfer to LRT. Assuming 8 and 3 minute headway at rush hour, that means that from Hull, you will spend an average of about 6 minutes just waiting for your transfers versus about 5 actually in a vehicle. I'm a big proponent of transfers for a variety of reasons, but that's just a silly ratio.

The PoW bridge is simply too out of the way and the fact that it would require an absolute minimum of two transfers isn't ideal to say the least.

There are some solutions though (though none ideal):

1. Have a line which runs from Hull to Bayview to Downtown. You eliminate a transfer, but it's still a pretty significant backtrack for people coming from anywhere but Aylmer (which, granted, represents a very sizeable portion of commuters to Ottawa from Gatineau)

2. Have Gatineau build LRT through Hull, then across the Alexandra to terminate at the Plaza (Rideau/Wellington) Bridge. In terms of cost-benefit, I think this is the most desirable option, being both relatively cheap (no new bridges or tunnels) and largely eliminating backtracking and even doing away with transferring for people working east of Bank, but a transfer at Rideau would be inelegant and it would be politically delicate.

3. Build LRT on the Portage Bridge, then have it tunnel into the escarpment by the Park of the Provinces to join up with the DOTT. This option eliminates the double-transfer, but interlining isn't ideal, especially since the peak frequencies will be so high in the tunnel and the NCC would have a fit.

4. Bite the bullet and build the Bank St. subway with an extension under the river to Hull. Though in all probability this would be ungodly expensive (though it's worth pointing out that the Ottawa River behind Parliament is a lot less deep than people imagine), it would be the quickest, most direct route, eliminating all backtracking and insuring a solid connection between the cores. In an 'unlimited funding' scenario, this would be the ideal option by far.


I've thought a lot about this and I haven't found any solution that makes everyone happy. But, all things considered, I think that option 2 is the best available/plausible.

With the current Rapibus setup, that is actually incorrect.

During peak periods, there are two Rapibus main routes - 100 (to Hull) and 200 (to Ottawa). If the O-Train was sitting there, many going to non-downtown locations, especially Booth Street, Confederation Heights and Carleton (and maybe Tunney's Pasture but that would add a transfer or a long walk of about 900 to 1,500m), would prefer to take the 100 and transfer to the O-Train at Chaudiere. Based on ridership patterns, it is probable the STO would reduce the number of 200s and increase the number of 100s. It would provide a valuable transfer connection that reduces the number of buses (both OC and STO) across the Ottawa River.

For travel to downtown Ottawa, the O-Train extension wouldn't be very useful, so it wouldn't eliminate STO buses on Ottawa streets.

From De La Cite Station to Confederation Heights, assuming a 3 minute walk to the train:

Fastest route now AM - Take the STO 200 to the Rideau Centre, walk through the Rideau Centre, take the OC 87 to Confederation Heights. (Travel time 25 minutes on STO + 5 minute walk + 17 minutes on OC = 47 minutes)

Fastest route with extension AM - Take the STO 100 to Chaudiere, walk across the street, take the O-Train Trillium Line to Confederation Heights. (Travel time 21 minutes on STO + 3 minute walk + 14 minutes on OC = 38 minutes)

Fastest route now PM - Take the OC 87 to Mackenzie King, walk through the Rideau Centre, take the STO 200 to De La Cite. (Travel time 16 minutes on OC + 5 minute walk + 30 minutes on STO = 51 minutes)

Fastest route with extension PM - Take the O-Train Trillium Line to Chaudiere,, walk across the street, take the STO 100 to De La Cite. (Travel time 14 minutes on OC + 3 minute walk + 18 minutes on STO = 35 minutes)

Savings: 9 minutes in the morning, 16 minutes in the afternoon (the difference is due to higher traffic onto the bridges + being at the exit point of the downtown Hull loop but not the entry point).

[Aylmer]

It isn't an 'either-or' decision; not extending the O-Train across an unused, existing bridge with rails leading all the way to Hull is crazy and it's even crazier that it hasn't been done yet. As you quite rightly pointed out, it would make getting to a variety of non-downtown locations a thousand times easier to people in Gatineau (though it's worth pointing out that the O-D Survey indicates that the trips from Gatineau to non-central Ottawa only represents a miniscule fraction of trips) and it would undoubtedly reduce the need for Gatineau-bound OC Transco busses. It's a total no-brainer and should get done immediately, if not sooner.

However, I think we both agree that it would do little to solve the problem of STO bus congestion on Wellington. That's where the scenarios I proposed come into play: they're meant as ways of eliminating most (i.e. all non-Rapibus buses and perhaps eventually those once the system is converted to rail) from Wellington all while dramatically improving travel times (really not hard to do when it routinely takes as much as a half hour to get from Rideau to Montcalm).

[Kitchissippi]

The other unspoken option is to convert the PoW bridge (with clip-ons like the Alexandra) to Rapibus and have a Rapibus station/terminal at Bayview. Without an LRT commitment from the city of Gatineau, this would actually take the least amount of investment from all sides. Bayview could end up integrating the paid-fare zone for the Rapibus along with the Confederation and Trillium Lines, making transfers between the systems more convenient and efficient.

[ACmodels]

I like that idea but when Rapibus does get converted into LRT in like 50 years the POW bridge would have to be converted again which I find is just a waste of money... most likely everything is going to be the same for the next 10-20 years commuting with no LRT link to Gatineau.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

What SHOULD have happened is that Gatineau should have worked with Ottawa to extend the O-Train along the tracks in Gatineau, routed many STO buses to there, and not have built the Rapibus and moved the tracks.

If they were trying to build a commuter-based system, that would have been the solution.

But alas.

[Kitchissippi]

I don't think the OTrain set-up could have handled the same volume as the Rapibus currently does. STO would need to get larger trains, and control their own frequencies. Having Bayview as a three line transfer hub would also help diffuse the volume of passengers. With the recent investment in RapiBus, LRT is a long way off for Gatineau, given that the population is under 300k and thinly spread over a large territory. Its older neighbourhoods have barely experienced the same kind of renaissance that Centretoen or the Glebe did 30 years ago, and central Hull is still perceived as the poorer of the sectors to live in.

I really think extending RapiBus to Bayview is the most logical option at this point. With a direct link and single transfer to the Confederation Line, it would actually increase the TOD potential of Rapibus stations, and concentrating volumes on this corridor would help accelerate the business case for LRT in the future as was proven with the Transitway.

[FFX-ME]

Extending the Rapibus to Bayview would require a new bridge or a bridge modification. Given that a railway bridge already exists that is perfectly positioned for the existing O-train line it is crazy people haven't already added a bit of tracks to the bridge and past to bring LRT to one station in Gatineau. It may be cheaper than bringing the rapibus to bayview and would actually be the right decision for the future of the metropolis.

I am just insanely baffled as to why this isn't being done. Lay down the tracks, have a simple station on the Gatineau side and bam in a couple of months Gatineau is connected to Bayview and traffic in the core is lessened while increasing STO use towards that non-downtown route.

Naming it the Trillium line was very stupid and shortsighted though. How could a trans-provincial line be named after the symbol of Ontario.

I'm really tempted to start a petition to bring attention to this and get it done.

[Dado]

Well they could re-rename it the Trillium-Fleur-de-lis Line.

Problem solved. Next.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Extending the Rapibus to Bayview would require a new bridge or a bridge modification. Given that a railway bridge already exists that is perfectly positioned for the existing O-train line it is crazy people haven't already added a bit of tracks to the bridge and past to bring LRT to one station in Gatineau. It may be cheaper than bringing the rapibus to bayview and would actually be the right decision for the future of the metropolis.

I am just insanely baffled as to why this isn't being done. Lay down the tracks, have a simple station on the Gatineau side and bam in a couple of months Gatineau is connected to Bayview and traffic in the core is lessened while increasing STO use towards that non-downtown route.

Naming it the Trillium line was very stupid and shortsighted though. How could a trans-provincial line be named after the symbol of Ontario.

I'm really tempted to start a petition to bring attention to this and get it done.

Having passengers on the Confederation line transfer on to the O-Train/Trillium line for one station across the bridge only to transfer again to the Rapibus system is rather inefficient and time consuming. Unless the Rapibus spine is converted to LRT, there is little point in doing this.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Having passengers on the Confederation line transfer on to the O-Train/Trillium line for one station across the bridge only to transfer again to the Rapibus system is rather inefficient and time consuming. Unless the Rapibus spine is converted to LRT, there is little point in doing this.

A way around this would be to interline the Gatineau line with the Confederation line but that would only lower the frequency to the west so I see your point.

Great news about the award, this will really change the city for the good.