LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[1overcosc]

Ottawa built the stadium in the 1990s when suburb-worship in Ontario was at its peak. Back in the day, it would have been quite a leap for Ottawa to have built a downtown stadium. Nowadays though, if a new stadium was going to be built, nobody would think twice about putting it downtown.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

For instance with growth in online shopping I would not be surprised if some grade B shopping malls close in the future as the buildings get outdated and maybe are not worth updating...

I'm honestly having difficulty seeing a bright future for St. Laurent Mall. I expect a redevelopment of that site to happen soonish. With the Confederation Line coming the land value of that site is going to be too high, and the profit of it too low, for a market-responsive company like Morguard to let it sit.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

There will be a ton of sites available! Vancouver's Rogers Areana is crammed into a spot right downtown that no one even thought was big enough for a stadium but it fits in perfectly! I still can't believe that ottawa built the stadium out in kanata. It's like ottawa thinks that a stadium needs acres of surface parking lots or something?

Sadly, it is very much like that.

Of course, Ottawa doesn't have a Lower East Side equivalent (or whatever you would technically call that area of new condos just west of Chinatown), or elevated road corridor downtown begging for redevelopment.

[wingman]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I'm honestly having difficulty seeing a bright future for St. Laurent Mall. I expect a redevelopment of that site to happen soonish. With the Confederation Line coming the land value of that site is going to be too high, and the profit of it too low, for a market-responsive company like Morguard to let it sit.

That would be a pretty awesome spot actually. Sure, it would have its issues (like all locations really) but that would be a pretty neat spot right on the Queesnway, near some major intersections and on the Confederation Line! Not gonna happen, but I would love to see a mockup of that!

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I'm honestly having difficulty seeing a bright future for St. Laurent Mall. I expect a redevelopment of that site to happen soonish. With the Confederation Line coming the land value of that site is going to be too high, and the profit of it too low, for a market-responsive company like Morguard to let it sit.

Actually running my eye right down Coventry rd, I don't see much aside from maybe the hotels and perhaps the office building across from the stadium that I would expect to find there in 30 years. Some of the stuff is fine and usable now, but they are definitely not long term buildings.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by phil235

The more important questions are where he is going to get the money to put into a new facility, given his decline in fortunes and the fact that he has already leveraged the team for other purposes, and whether it makes economic sense to invest in a downtown arena when he currently controls all revenue streams relating to the team, including parking and restaurants, on the exisiting site.

Even though it seems like they're not the best of friends, I'm imagining a scenario in which SSE (Senators Sports and Entertainment) and OSEG (Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group) some day join forces to create a single sports/entertainment entity in this town ... surely the combined group could raise the capital needed to fund such a project.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Even though it seems like they're not the best of friends, I'm imagining a scenario in which SSE (Senators Sports and Entertainment) and OSEG (Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group) some day join forces to create a single sports/entertainment entity in this town ... surely the combined group could raise the capital needed to fund such a project.

You're probably right about that being the most likely scenario. They already co-operate on Capital Tickets. And the OSEG partners do not seem to have the same net worth issues as Eugene.

There is a persistent rumour that Dan Greenberg will take a stake in the Sens, so maybe there is something to that.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by citydwlr

Me too! The morning rush hour is horrendous there. Not sure how it is a night (I avoid it); but I'd assume it's about the same.

I feel like they should throw a giant traffic circle there, not unlike the one in Paris (Place Charles de Gaulle).

Reserve that circle as the future site of a 120-foot statue of Harper, and the feds will jump on board.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by jitterbug

True, finding land for a new arena won't get any easier with time, though they managed to do it in Toronto (for the Rogers Centre and Air Canada Centre), and Montreal's Bell Centre (and I think in other cities like Vancouver as well) -- all of which are located in the heart of these cities. When Ottawa "grows up" we too will have a centrally located arena. Unfortunately that will be years, likely decades, away.

Ottawa is too busy gleefully growing out to grow up. Unless and until the city can grow some nads, and escape from the thrall of the sprawl-merchants, t'will ever be thus.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

There will be a ton of sites available! Vancouver's Rogers Areana is crammed into a spot right downtown that no one even thought was big enough for a stadium but it fits in perfectly! I still can't believe that ottawa built the stadium out in kanata. It's like ottawa thinks that a stadium needs acres of surface parking lots or something?

Ottawa thinks that N needs acres of surface parking. True for any value of N.

[rocketphish]

Let's hope LeBreton goes better this time

Mohammed Adam, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: October 15, 2014, Last Updated: October 15, 2014 4:50 PM EDT

When the National Capital Commission first engaged the private sector in 2004 to develop LeBreton Flats, it ended in disaster, and going back to the same source a second time could end in tears again.

New CEO Mark Kristmanson’s call for “innovative and inspirational” private-sector proposals to develop 9.3 hectares of the Flats, with room for another 12 hectares, is laudable, if long overdue. When the NCC expropriated the LeBreton settlement in the early 1960s, it inherited 57.5 hectares (excluding municipal roads).

Of the original acquisition, the NCC says 17.8 hectares, or 31 per cent of the land, has been developed for various uses. This is made up of 7.5 hectares for the War Museum, the Bluesfest site, parkways and open space for future public uses. Another 4.5 hectares was sold to Claridge Homes for its condo development, and 5.8 hectares went to the City of Ottawa for such things as LRT and roads. So, 50 years on, about 40 hectares remain undeveloped.

It is easy to see why Kristmanson, and no doubt John Baird, the political minister for the NCC who is demanding “inspired design excellence” want to get on with it.

But if the NCC really wants architectural excellence, the board should have gone with an international design competition. The NCC should have clearly defined its vision for what’s left of LeBreton Flats, then broken it down into phases as necessary, and thrown it to the great architects and urban designers around the world to show what’s possible.

Leaving it to developers won’t work because they are, by nature, not practitioners of great design – certainly not in Ottawa. Developers are concerned primarily with the bottom line, and that’s why they put up basic, no-drama buildings they can sell quickly and make money from. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Whether it is LeBreton, Lansdowne or the Daly site, what you get from developers are standard commercial buildings – not dazzling design.

Why would developers sink millions of dollars into a landmark development of national importance when the government appears reluctant to do so? Why would private developers take on such an expensive project when money can be made building everyday houses? And with no likelihood of help from the city, what good would it do Senators owner Eugene Melnyk to spend $300-$400 million on a new downtown rink when the Canadian Tire Centre and the surrounding land still hold a lot of promise?

We also know that a new science museum won’t be built on the Flats because the federal government says it doesn’t have the $400-$800 million needed to build it. A new library, concert hall, or art gallery similar to the ones in Halifax, Calgary and Edmonton, won’t be built there either, because the City of Ottawa is simply incapable of such a feat.

So what would qualify as a signature development? The NCC has really not defined it beyond “a bold new anchor that will welcome the public, serve as an economic driver, feature innovative use of land and bring design excellence, animation and a unique public experience” to the capital. You could fit anything and everything into that mouthful, so let’s speculate: The mother of all shopping malls perhaps? With the city’s newfound love for height, maybe a village of skyscrapers? A compound for technology-start-ups that don’t want to locate in suburbia? It is anybody’s guess.

The big question is whether, in this current market, enough of the innovative developers would care enough to put in proposals. No one really knows. The last time, the NCC didn’t get many bids and ended up with three shortlisted companies and a bizarre situation in which the two top-scoring firms in the evaluation withdrew, handing the development to the one with the lowest score.

It is good to be excited about a landmark development at LeBreton Flats, and one hopes Kristmanson can pull it off. But don’t be surprised if we end up with standard fare that’s dressed up Ottawa-style as signature development.

Mohammed Adam is an Ottawa writer.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...tter-this-time

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ottawa built the stadium in the 1990s when suburb-worship in Ontario was at its peak. Back in the day, it would have been quite a leap for Ottawa to have built a downtown stadium. Nowadays though, if a new stadium was going to be built, nobody would think twice about putting it downtown.

The province (at least once the Liberals were tossed out) opposed the Kanata plan.

http://www.obj.ca/Opinion/Bruce-Fire...is-in-Kanata/1

I don't think there was any particular trend at the time towards suburban arenas. Other arenas opened in the mid 90s were all in city centres (Montreal, Boston, Nashville, Buffalo, Vancouver, etc).

I think the fundamental problem is that Bruce Firestone had no money (at least not professional sports team owner money) and had to come of with a zany scheme to finance the team and arena at a time various levels of government were near bankrupt and the country was in a difficult economic situation. By the time Firestone was out of money and had to sell, the Kanata plan was already too far gone.

If the expansion had come a few years earlier there would have been large amounts of provincial cash for a downtown (as there was for the skydome), if it had come a few years later the city would have been awash in tech money, and if it had come a few years after that the city probably would have kicked in a significant amount (as they did for Lansdowne).

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think the fundamental problem is that Bruce Firestone had no money (at least not professional sports team owner money) and had to come of with a zany scheme to finance the team and arena at a time various levels of government were near bankrupt and the country was in a difficult economic situation. By the time Firestone was out of money and had to sell, the Kanata plan was already too far gone.

This is it exactly.

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

I suspect in 20 or 30 years there will be sites available that we can't even imagine now. For instance with growth in online shopping I would not be surprised if some grade B shopping malls close in the future as the buildings get outdated and maybe are not worth updating...

I've actually dreamed about a Canada Post/Terminal Ave/Train Yards redevelopment centred around a CTC move (2030s maybe?).

Edit: Ya, something like this:

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Even though it seems like they're not the best of friends, I'm imagining a scenario in which SSE (Senators Sports and Entertainment) and OSEG (Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group) some day join forces to create a single sports/entertainment entity in this town ... surely the combined group could raise the capital needed to fund such a project.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

At this point, the best we can do is reserve land downtown-ish for a new arena whenever that comes. My worry is that with redevelopment of many sites now in full swing there will be no easy spot for one left in the core when the CTC finally does hit the end of its life in 20-30 years.

They should just take the $250 million it takes to build a new stadium (based on the Bell Centers 1996 estimate) and construct the Senators line from Bayshore to the CTC. Then lease the line to the city to cover the costs and that would kill two birds with one stone. Making the CTC more accessible and prividing LRT service to Kanata... Just saying.

[waterloowarrior]

@JonathanWilling https://twitter.com/JonathanWilling/...68828925419520
A "a greater expression of interest than expected" is pushing LeBreton Flats request deadline to new year to allow "proper" submissions.

[rocketphish]

Developers wanted more time for LeBreton bids: NCC

Robert Bostelaar, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: October 28, 2014, Last Updated: October 28, 2014 7:40 PM EDT

The National Capital Commission says a “greater expression of interest than expected” — and not any lack of takers — is behind a decision to extend the deadline for proposals to develop the next stage of LeBreton Flats.

Developers now have until Jan. 7 to make initial submissions for the project on a large parcel of vacant land adjoining the Canadian War Museum just west of Ottawa’s downtown. The original deadline was Dec. 5.

The extension “was a request from those who came to the site visit and information meeting, and those who’ve been in contact,” NCC spokesman Mario Tremblay said Tuesday.

The commission said the delay will not affect the project timetable, which calls for the successful bidder to be named by late 2015.

Tremblay was unable to say how many potential bidders have surfaced for the 9.3-hectare site and another 12.3-hectare package that could be added to the development.

An earlier attempt to develop the flats, a one-time working class neighbourhood that was swept by fire and later expropriated by the NCC, drew little interest. Just one developer remained on a list of qualified bidders for the initial stage after two higher-ranked firms withdrew their proposals, and the condominiums that were built disappointed those hoping for significant architecture on the high-profile site.

The latest call for bids has also drawn criticism for again relying on proposals from developers rather than throwing the project open to an international design competition.

Tremblay, however, said the requests for more time are an indication of how seriously firms are taking the project and the work they are putting into the details of their submissions.

After Jan. 7, the NCC will assemble a short list of bidders based on experience, design expertise and financial capacity to undertake such a project. A second stage will involve more detailed designs and financial proposals.

The NCC issued its call for initial submissions on Sept. 30 and met with potential developers earlier this month.

[email protected]

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...reton-bids-ncc

[MoreTrains]

Well, its already been 50 years, whats another few months eh?

[citydwlr]

It's too bad they didn't decide to do a competition, like that article mentions.

There's a competition currently under way for the Guggenheim museum in Helsinki, and it's pretty incredible, albeit a little excessive with the hundreds of entries that have been submitted. The public (worldwide) gets to sift through the entries and select their own shortlists that presumably will be compiled into a smaller list of finalists.

Would have been neat for the NCC to do something similar...

[phil235]

Originally Posted by citydwlr

It's too bad they didn't decide to do a competition, like that article mentions.

There's a competition currently under way for the Guggenheim museum in Helsinki, and it's pretty incredible, albeit a little excessive with the hundreds of entries that have been submitted. The public (worldwide) gets to sift through the entries and select their own shortlists that presumably will be compiled into a smaller list of finalists.

Would have been neat for the NCC to do something similar...

But for the Guggenheim, they know what they want to build. That's when competitions work well.

With Lebreton, they are seeking proposals as to the use. Design competitions fare poorly in those circumstances, as they are basically saying "architects of the world, tell us what you think we need".

Where there is no intended use, far better to look for complete proposals with funding included.