Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

At one point in history, several millions Jews moved from the Levant to Europe and I suppose that at various points during the last two millenia, there were extended periods where if you had spoken to these European Jews, the overwhelming answer would have been "life is good here, even great!".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

agreed^

hell, i am not even sure, taking the long view, that human sacrifice is done for good.*

this cyclical vs. linear thing is a big divide.

(most of my really antique-sounding suspicions hinge on either a global pandemic- or nuclear war-related return to pre-industrial conditions, or alternatively some sort of very strange mass anomaly of the type that was once called a revelation. extraterrestrial life, were it to interact with us, could cause such a scenario, as could weird discoveries about consciousness).

For my part I'm just praying (apologies to rousseau!) that the next 100 years or so are reasonably quiet to spare myself and my kids any too serious global mayhem!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

(most of my really antique-sounding suspicions hinge on either a global pandemic- or nuclear war-related return to pre-industrial conditions, or alternatively some sort of very strange mass anomaly of the type that was once called a revelation. extraterrestrial life, were it to interact with us, could cause such a scenario, as could weird discoveries about consciousness).

Just look at the global frenzy triggered by one event that was not, in terms of its impact (compared to a war or natural disaster, for instance), all that far reaching: 9/11.

I can't imagine the effect that one of those totally out of left field scenarios could have. Even something like a year-long, or even 6-month long blackout in North America could send things into a tailspin.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The idea is such a remote possibility and they know this full well, so they can safely make the statement in order to self-agrandize themselves and claim a higher level of moral virtue than everyone else.

You sure have a knack for painting people who disagree with you in with an extremist propaganda-laden brush.

The only reason French is an official language of Canada is because France injected several thousand French speaking people into New France hundreds of years ago.

The fact is that Canada keeps accepting tens of thousands of Chinese (and recently Filipino and Indian) immigrants every single year. If we have such a close and important immigration relationship with a country that speaks another language, the possibility that we as a country might think about adopting another official language to accommodate and foster this important immigration relationship is not in my mind out of the question. It might be complex, it might be "hard", but it also might be worth it, and I wouldn't think of us as losing our culture due to the change, if anything I would look at it as rapidly expanding our culture into something very unique in the world. Last I checked people didn't look down on Swizerland as being a cultural barren wasteland just because they have 4 official languages and accepted many immigrants from a diverse set of countries.

Moral high ground, or simply pragmatic approach to immigration that realizes immigration is a two way street?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by geotag277

You sure have a knack for painting people who disagree with you in with an extremist propaganda-laden brush.

The only reason French is an official language of Canada is because France injected several thousand French speaking people into New France hundreds of years ago.

This alone would probably not have been enough. Another major determining factor is that the French settlers established a full-fledged society with an education system from the early years to university, a legal and court system, and a whole bunch of other "national" institutions operating in French. All of which have continued to exist to this day.

Aside from the people from the British Isles, other groups that moved to Canada for a variety of reasons did not or could not set up a full-fledged society.Only the Ukrainians on the Prairies kinda came close but their efforts fizzled out eventually.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by geotag277

if anything I would look at it as rapidly expanding our culture into something very unique in the world.

It would indeed be unique in the world as once a country or a region of a country is "settled" by the group that sets up the society, there is almost never any talk of granting official status to the languages of subsequent waves of contemporary immigrants.

If anyone is aware of such an instance, I'd really like to hear about it.

At the very least I am not aware of any countries in the world where there is currently any talk of making a contemporary immigrant language official. Anyone wanna chime in?

So yeah, this would make Canada extremely unique.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Last I checked people didn't look down on Swizerland as being a cultural barren wasteland just because they have 4 official languages and accepted many immigrants from a diverse set of countries.

Do you know anything AT ALL about Switzerland? None of their official languages is an immigrant language. They have immigrant languages present but there is no talk of making any of them official either, even if some of them actually have way more speakers than Romansh, the official language with the least number of speakers.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It would indeed be unique in the world as once a country or a region of a country is "settled" by the group that sets up the society, there is almost never any talk of granting official status to the languages of subsequent waves of contemporary immigrants.

If anyone is aware of such an instance, I'd really like to hear about it.

At the very least I am not aware of any countries in the world where there is currently any talk of making a contemporary immigrant language official. Anyone wanna chime in?

So yeah, this would make Canada extremely unique.

Singapore has Malay, Mandarin, Tamil, and English as official languages. The Malay population is thought to be indigenous, but the Chinese arrived and are now the majority. Indian migrants speaking Tamil arrived in different waves and constitute a small minority. English helps Singapore connect with the rest of the world.

Hindi in Fiji may also count.

I also question the use of the term "settled" in a state that is the product of recent colonization and continual mass migration.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I also question the use of the term "settled" in a state that is the product of recent colonization and continual mass migration.

Maybe "set up organized society" is better then.

[saffronleaf]

Just because your daddy came to this land earlier does not necessarily mean that you have a superior claim to the country. I don't know if merit has an intergenerational transitive property. Especially in a state characterized by brutal colonization and then continued mass migration.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Maybe "set up organized society" is better then.

That's awful dismissive of aboriginal societies.

It also ignores the fact that "setting up organized society" is not some instantaneous act; it occurs gradually over a long time period, and continues to occur. And insofar as it gradually develops, the continued arrival of large numbers of migrants helped in the efforts of setting up society.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

That's awful dismissive of aboriginal societies.

I am a big supporter of aboriginal rights and would never use as an argument against them the fact that there is usually little left of any societal organization they had set up.

This is a very unfortunate reality in my view.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Just because your daddy came to this land earlier does not necessarily mean that you have a superior claim to the country. .

Except... I never said that.

Newcomers can and will change the country. It's a normal process and once they become citizens they are of course equal in all ways to people who were born here.

But how a country changes is a matter for its citizens to decide (either native-born or naturalized), it's not a free for all that the entire world's population gets a say in.

And one of the citizenry's prerogatives is to decide how many, if any, people it wants to naturalize and join them in the country's citizenship.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Just because your daddy came to this land earlier .

BTW it's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-granddaddy...

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

BTW it's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-granddaddy...

good for him...?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

good for him...?

I dunno. Never knew him...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Singapore has Malay, Mandarin, Tamil, and English as official languages. The Malay population is thought to be indigenous, but the Chinese arrived and are now the majority. Indian migrants speaking Tamil arrived in different waves and constitute a small minority. English helps Singapore connect with the rest of the world.

Hindi in Fiji may also count.

.

Thanks for the examples. These sound like they would be akin to Ukrainian gaining a more official foothold in Western Canada in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

[saffronleaf]

But yeah, none of this really applies to Quebec. Quebec wants to operate as an Old World Continental European nation state, and that's fine. I don't necessarily think it's right, but I suppose it is true that the French language is severely endangered and needs to be coddled in order to ensure its survival.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

It also ignores the fact that "setting up organized society" is not some instantaneous act; it occurs gradually over a long time period, and continues to occur. And insofar as it gradually develops, the continued arrival of large numbers of migrants helped in the efforts of setting up society.

But what new arrivals normally do is add their contribution to what's already there or in the process of being built.

Although in some cases, they are either forced to have parallel institutions for a variety of reasons, or choose to set up their own because they thought of themselves as superior or something.

I will stand corrected if wrong but I suspect the continued existence of those cultures and languages and their institutions in Singapore and Fiji is likely a result of some kind of forced separation between people of different races. (Perhaps desired by some or all of the groups themselves.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I don't necessarily think it's right, but I suppose it is true that the French language is severely endangered and needs to be coddled in order to ensure its survival.

At this point in our history, the alternative to French being coddled (your choice of words) is likely Quebec as an independent country. No more coddling or protection for French required at that point!