Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think the New World Anglo realm (at least in the extremely self-effacing form we are discussing) is basically limited to a certain portion of the Anglo-Canadian population. Places like Australia and even the U.S. aren't nearly as self-effacing as this segment of Anglo-Canada is. In fact they are more like Quebec to be honest.

The idea that Australia might be a Mandarin-speaking country in 100 years is not something that is so lightheartedly discussed down under as it seems to be in some circles in Anglo-Canada.

Honestly, I feel like you're not well acquainted with some of the progressives and liberals in the United States. From my experience, this viewpoint has more support among young, progressive, liberal, educated Americans than I encountered in Canada.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So anyplace that does not implement the view your prefer is a dying culture?

Funny, but those cultures you see as dying are those I'd wager on surviving a lot longer than that of Anglo-Canada. This is not something I am wishing for, but it does seem to be a possible end result of the self-effacing ideology.

No, but the erecting protectionist policies to safeguard culture often screams desperation. Quebec did not institute language laws merely to codify existing norms, but more in response to the cultural threat posed by English. Quebec was fearful that, without artificial legal mechanisms in place, the province would ultimately become English like, for example, Louisiana.

The reason why you often don't find that in New World Anglo countries is because the threat is minimal. English is not going to die in the foreseeable future, with or without government intervention.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

Maybe it's because English Canada lacks a strong identity and multiculturalism became their defacto new identity. You don't get that in the US for sure.

You definitely get that in the US among young, educated, liberal, progressive folks.

There is a very strong sentiment that the White Christian culture in the US does not have any superior claim to what it means to be 'American,' nor any superior claim to the public realm. Even White Christians claiming to be "American" without any hyphenation are often viewed skeptically, as though the individual were making a disingenuous claim on what it means to be American. Many are entirely content with the Spanish language growing in the US, and are proud of the federal government not having any de jure language.

It's hard for Canadians to fully embrace being the product of colonization and mass migration in part because Quebec has adopted a very nation-state view. Quebec wants to view Canada as binational. But some in Anglo Canada do not want to be put in that Old World tribalistic box. They'd rather see Canada as multicultural, with the Quebecois culture being one of many.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

You definitely get that in the US among young, educated, liberal, progressive folks.

There is a very strong sentiment that the White Christian culture in the US does not have any superior claim to what it means to be 'American,' nor any superior claim to the public realm. Even White Christians claiming to be "American" without any hyphenation are often viewed skeptically, as though the individual were making a disingenuous claim on what it means to be American. Many are entirely content with the Spanish language growing in the US, and are proud of the federal government not having any de jure language.

It's hard for Canadians to fully embrace being the product of colonization and mass migration in part because Quebec has adopted a very nation-state view. Quebec wants to view Canada as binational. But some in Anglo Canada do not want to be put in that Old World tribalistic box. They'd rather see Canada as multicultural, with the Quebecois culture being one of many.

Who is the "they" that actually espouses this? I know some Quebec nationalists clamour against it, but it is a bit mysterious to me. You wouldn't normally, in my experience, find that kind of thinking among old-stock (ie. UK origin) Anglo Canadians, who don't see themselves as part of "multicultural", the occasional Irish dance troupe or Scottish Highland Games notwithstanding.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ethnic immigrant enclaves that are too strong and hermetic also can lead to undesirable things like ''white flight'' (for lack of a better term) and our various groups living in silos. I am not sure we really want that and it's astonishing that we have so many people here that are advocating so strongly for something that might lead us down that path - in 2014.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at least in Richmond, "white flight" has been happening for a while now.
Back when census 2011 information became available, I remember noticing that the white population in Richmond had been declining since at least the 90's.
In my experience growing up there, the majority of them seem to be moving to places like South Surrey, Langley, and further into the valley.

In Richmond, it seems like neighbourhoods seem to be relatively stable in composition until they reach a certain critical mass of Chinese residents, and then they rapidly shift to being almost entirely composed of that group. At some point in the last 7 years, my former elementary school (and the surrounding neighbourhood) has gone from less than 1/4 Chinese to almost 3/4 Chinese.

In my opinion, if ANY particular group of residents, regardless of ethnicity, of an area are moving away in droves, it's a sign that something is amiss.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at least in Richmond, "white flight" has been happening for a while now.
Back when census 2011 information became available, I remember noticing that the white population in Richmond had been declining since at least the 90's.
In my experience growing up there, the majority of them seem to be moving to places like South Surrey, Langley, and further into the valley.

In Richmond, it seems like neighbourhoods seem to be relatively stable in composition until they reach a certain critical mass of Chinese residents, and then they rapidly shift to being almost entirely composed of that group. At some point in the last 7 years, my former elementary school (and the surrounding neighbourhood) has gone from less than 1/4 Chinese to almost 3/4 Chinese.

In my opinion, if ANY particular group of residents, regardless of ethnicity, of an area are moving away in droves, it's a sign that something is amiss.

A diversity in the diversity of neighborhoods in a given metropolitan area is fine in my opinion. Self-segregation happens at all levels for a variety of reasons, and it's not just white flight and it's not just on the basis of race or ethnicity. I personally prefer diverse neighborhoods, of which there are plenty in major Canadian metropolitan areas.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

A diversity in the diversity of neighborhoods in a given metropolitan area is fine in my opinion. Self-segregation happens at all levels for a variety of reasons, and it's not just white flight and it's not just on the basis of race or ethnicity. I personally prefer diverse neighborhoods, of which there are plenty in major Canadian metropolitan areas.

Diversity is when an entire metro region has Whites, Chinese, Indians, Blacks etc...mixed up all over the place, not when there's a White area, a Chinese area, and Indian area and a Black area.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

It was Greek, then Latin, the French, and now English. Why not Chinese next? (i'm just posing the question. Personally, I'd like if English or some anglo-hybrid was the endpoint if there needs to be one). English only really took off 20 years ago with the fall of the USSR, Scandinavia joining the EU, globalization, etc. It's the world's second language; the language of knowledge, authority, and business. Who knows what the future will bring...

China's relationship with the outside world is very different than that of Ancient Greece or Rome or "modern" Europe. (modern meaning 1600's onwards). Foreigners in China historically were confined to extraterritorial enclaves and in the present day mostly English speaking expat communities in large cities. China doesn't really have an inherent desire to culturally engage with the rest of the world or even with the foreign populations living there.

The ascendency of all these languages was fueled by a desire for knowledge or entertainment. If you were living through the Enlightenment and you're native tongue was Crimean Gothic, there were vast amounts of new information and literature that were alien to you. In the present day it might be the latest episode of whatever HBO series delivered via Bit Torrent. Learning English becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, you learn it because you want to consume English language cultural products and you learn it from exposure to those cultural products.

Meanwhile if Chinese scientists make a huge breakthrough in science or medicine. The first publication of that discovery may very well be in English. All the while the producers of the Chinese knock-off of Honey Boo Boo are probably unconcerned that it hasn't been syndicated in the West.

[vid]

<Feepa>Shouldn't this be in the Vancouver section?</Feepa>

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by Doug

Soon enough you'll be able to take a picture of any writing and an app will translate it.

Machine translation works especially poorly for Chinese, given that many characters have multiple meanings and pronunciations, along with the enormous number of idioms that are commonly used.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Diversity is when an entire metro region has Whites, Chinese, Indians, Blacks etc...mixed up all over the place, not when there's a White area, a Chinese area, and Indian area and a Black area.

That's exactly the most desirable type of diversity. It's astonishing that people who claim to be forward-looking and modern 21st century globalist types are actually condoning racial segregation on here - whether it's imposed or self doesn't really matter.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Meanwhile if Chinese scientists make a huge breakthrough in science or medicine. The first publication of that discovery may very well be in English.

Actually, probably not. Chinese scientists and medical experts are producing a fair amount of original research already, if not really any huge breakthroughs. Numerous business and academic organizations in the U.S. are already keeping tabs on the goings-on in China by regularly having academic journal articles and patents translated into English. That's actually a big part of what I do for a living. The automated Google translations and the translations done by Chinese authors usually end up being unintelligible Chinglish. Which is why I have a career.

If and when a huge breakthrough does occur, there's a reasonably good chance it'll get translated into English by yours truly. 'Twould be a feather in my cap, to be sure.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Doug

You are making the assumption that Anglo-Canada even exists. It doesn't despite considerable government resources thrown at the ideal. Much has been written about English Canada as a failed nation.

I live in Australia. The Asian influence is growing at least as fast as it is in Canada. I doubt many people think Australia, or Canada for that matter, will become Mandarin speaking simply because globalization will continue to pull the entire world towards English, which is the unchallenged language of commerce and technology. As long as the US remains such an overwhelming innovative force, nothing will change that.

Well, we've had several posters on this thread and others who have speculated about the possibility that English might be supplanted in Anglo-Canada by another language in 50 or 100 years. It's a hypothesis I've also heard elsewhere, often stated as if it was no big deal. I think it's ridiculous too but it's weird how people are almost bragging when they evoke that possibility as if it would be no big deal to them.

As for Oz, well I know it well and they are not as zen as Canadians with respect to all of this. Otherwise you wouldn't have stuff like Cronulla and MacQuarie Fields happening down there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Actually, probably not. Chinese scientists and medical experts are producing a fair amount of original research already, if not really any huge breakthroughs. Numerous business and academic organizations in the U.S. are already keeping tabs on the goings-on in China by regularly having academic journal articles and patents translated into English. That's actually a big part of what I do for a living. The automated Google translations and the translations done by Chinese authors usually end up being unintelligible Chinglish. Which is why I have a career.

If and when a huge breakthrough does occur, there's a reasonably good chance it'll get translated into English by yours truly. 'Twould be a feather in my cap, to be sure.

Glad to have you back, Jean-Jacques!

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Doug

You are making the assumption that Anglo-Canada even exists.

Cheers, eh! You tell'em. There's nothing we hate more than Angle-Canadians. They should either shoot straight or get off the ice. Too many angles can be...<burp>...confusing.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Glad to have you back, Jean-Jacques!

Likewise. Despite myself.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Glad to have you back, Jean-Jacques!

Thanks!

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Likewise. Despite myself.

You're a gracious gent. I'll try not be such a dickhead in the future.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Honestly, I feel like you're not well acquainted with some of the progressives and liberals in the United States. From my experience, this viewpoint has more support among young, progressive, liberal, educated Americans than I encountered in Canada.

The U.S. is quite different from Anglo-Canada is that it hasn't been dominated by white Anglo (often Protestant) people for a very, very long time. Traditional mainstream American culture contains many more different influences from African-American to Hawaiian to Louisiana Cajun to yes, even Mexican.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Doug

You are making the assumption that Anglo-Canada even exists. It doesn't despite considerable government resources thrown at the ideal. Much has been written about English Canada as a failed nation.

.

Perhaps in the wider cultural sense. So if you want to use that definition, sure.

But on a societal and social level Anglo-Canada is unquestionably one of the world's most successful nations.