Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Doug

Melting pot is more reality than policy. People mix and a new cultural equilibrium emerges.

But in order for that to happen people have to actually mix.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But in order for that to happen people have to actually mix.

Foreign language signs actually encourage people to mix more. You have to ask somebody what the sign means

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

2) 500 years from now, when Canada has far more people of Asian heritage, would it be fair/right for Canada to remain officially French and English? (assuming Canada exists in 500 years)

Well, first of all it is not certain what Canada will look like 500 years from now, but assuming Asians were the largest group, it is far from certain that they would speak an Asian language predominantly.

In spite of what appears to be going on in Richmond, Asian-Canadians have a high rate of assimilation and by the second or third generations few of them can write the language because of the difference in writing systems and the Canadian schooling they received. (Although a certain number can still speak their parents' language.

If you stopped immigration from Asia today within 50 years the number of speakers for these languages would drop dramatically. The Asian linguistic communities are generally not self-perpetuating themselves to a large degree intergenerationally. This does not have anything to do with them especially but is typical of immigrants anywhere around the world.

Still with this topis, the United States has considerably more people of German heritage than of English heritage, but that country still uses English.

Argentina has as many or more people of Italian heritage than it does Spanish, and yet the language of the country is still Spanish.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Yes, and nobody forced Yashiki one way or the other.

More or less. I'm pretty sure that if that guy's early 1920s pickup had had nothing but East Asian characters on it, it would've caused many 1920s Stevestonians to frown, just like it still does 80 years later (which is the reason why this thread exists).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Foreign language signs actually encourage people to mix more. You have to ask somebody what the sign means

According to some people in this thread, it's nearly always about handjobs/blowjobs, I would tend to think that it would be an uncomfortable ice-breaking topic to initiate a conversation with a complete stranger

[lio45]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

I can't think of any complete abandonings, but there are plenty of examples of languages once prevalent that are dying out while the country still remains the same "country".

Maybe Ireland could qualify. Mostly ethnically Celtic people but a huge majority of them are nowadays speaking the Germanic language of those from that other isle to the east who ruled over them for a while.

What's interesting with that example is that Ireland, IIRC, has fought back with laws to try to boost the revival of the Irish language. Kinda like what's being proposed in Richmond...

Sometimes if we collectively decide that some things are worth protecting the only way to do it is with laws.

[giallo]

It seems like Mainland Chinese can't get a break, but in a lot of ways, it's their own fault.

While I'm sure there were articles like this back in the late 80s and early 90s when a large influx of HKers and Taiwanese started coming over to Vancouver due to the impending HK handover to Beijing, it's the influx of Mainlanders this time that really seem to be causing a stir.

I've lived in the Mainland for a very long time now, and I've really got to understand the culture here (though it changes from city to city, province to province, Chinese-style confucianism is the order of the day throughout). China is a very exclusive place. A country that operates around the 'inner circle'. When it comes to who you care about, you have your family at the top, followed by friends and then, possibly, co-workers and acquaintances. Besides that, you're given permission socially to not give a flying F about anyone else on the planet. You see someone dying on the side of the street? It's your right not to help. You need that carton of milk before the bus comes? Go right to the front of the line at the convenience store without regard to anyone behind you. Your child needs to go to the bathroom, but you don't have any idea were one is in the immediate area? Relief in only a pant drop away. Add to this, a desire to make a dollar, no matter what the cost, and you've got a pretty indifferent society*

It's this sort of thinking that doesn't mesh well with other cultures. Even in China, there is growing animosity between local Shanghainese and the workers and families that move in to the city, and bring their questionable habits with them. And then there's Hong Kong........

When Mainland Chinese go abroad, and bring these culture habits with them, it's going to cause problems. Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia are so unbelievably disliked, it was pretty shocking to me how open people were about stating it. The common complaint? They've never tried to assimilate with the locals, and even though they are the richest minority group by far, they never give back to any community other than their own.

Africa seems to also be extremely anti-Chinese at the moment despite the country investing heavily in to the continent and being China's largest trading partner.

So what's happening in Vancouver, if anything is happening at all, is a reaction to a culture that really doesn't want to adapt initially. As time goes on, the new Mainlanders with become part of Canada just as every large group of immigrants before them have. It just takes time.

*China is a rapidly changing place, and the new generation of Chinese are very, very different than their elders when it comes to social behaviour. I have a lot of hope in the future children of China.

[Acajack]

One thing I have noticed, is that it seems that it isn't even Chinese-Canadians in Richmond who are telling non-Chinese people to adapt. It's mostly Anglo-Canadians telling Anglo-Canadians they should adapt.

I suspect that if you asked the Asian people in Richmond about the Chinese-only signs, the two main reactions by far would be ''This bothers you guys? Really? We really didn't mean to offend.'' and ''Sorry, but we're just doing our thing. It's not for you it is true but it's not against you either."

I would not expect many if any of them to say that Anglo-Canadians in Richmond should adapt to the city's new Asian reality or GTFO.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But in order for that to happen people have to actually mix.

They generally do in spite of government, religious and other community leaders that need to justify their own existences by creating barriers.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

I can't think of any complete abandonings, but there are plenty of examples of languages once prevalent that are dying out while the country still remains the same "country". If Mandarin became more common, it might (in theory) be similar to the phenomenon of English over the past 20 years. Language change is not something that would happen over night, but over hundreds of years.

The difference is languages that are widely spoken internationally were pretty accessible culturally speaking either historically in terms of literature or more modern forms of popular culture. More plainly there is a strong hook to learn English for one's personal amusement or education.

Chinese culture doesn't quite enjoy the same hook. There aren't vast fields of knowledge or mainstream genres of popular culture one is shut out of by not knowing Chinese.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Doug

They generally do in spite of government, religious and other community leaders that need to justify their own existences by creating barriers.

the libertarian perspective always emerges in a cloud of exasperation, like, "if only these busybodies would get out of the way we would really soar."

it makes you wonder, though, why human history has seen to many of these busybodies occupying positions of centrality for so many thousands of years. perhaps, to use libertarian terminology, they actually satisfy a "need in the market" for identity and continuity that extends beyond the circumstances available to rational economic actors.

perhaps the people who want an untrammeled, unhindered society of rational actors are actually a minority, or representatives of a relatively small post-enlightenment trend.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One thing I have noticed, is that it seems that it isn't even Chinese-Canadians in Richmond who are telling non-Chinese people to adapt. It's mostly Anglo-Canadians telling Anglo-Canadians they should adapt.
I suspect that if you asked the Asian people in Richmond about the Chinese-only signs, the two main reactions by far would be ''This bothers you guys? Really? We really didn't mean to offend.'' and ''Sorry, but we're just doing our thing. It's not for you it is true but it's not against you either."

I would not expect many if any of them to say that Anglo-Canadians in Richmond should adapt to the city's new Asian reality or GTFO.

Is it? I thought the issue came from a couple of Anglos petitioning the City to act on Chinese-only signs.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Obviously neighbourhoods and cities will change constantly, but if the city's founding community places value on certain language-based things (like their ability to be aware of the meaning of conspicuous text within the public realm, without making extra efforts to do so), shouldn't they be allowed to insist that newcomers conform to this? Isn't this what the thread was about?

Given that this proposal in Richmond has failed miserably many times, it's clear that many Anglo-Canadians and/or people in Richmond either: (a) do not think it is appropriate to impose linguistic restrictions on certain types of conspicuous text visible from the public realm, or (b) they think it is appropriate to impose such restrictions, however, that rightful imposition is outweighed by other substantive concerns (such as safeguarding the freedom of expression and how one may conduct their business), or (c) they think it is appropriate to impose such restrictions, but are opposed to it on practical grounds (e.g., they feel that taxpayer money could be used more prudently on other matters).

Obviously, there are people who believe that such restrictions should be imposed, but at least historically it hasn't been the plurality or majority of people in Anglo-Canada and/or Richmond.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Given that this proposal in Richmond has failed miserably many times, it's clear that many Anglo-Canadians and/or people in Richmond either: (a) do not think it is appropriate to impose linguistic restrictions on certain types of conspicuous text visible from the public realm, or (b) they think it is appropriate to impose such restrictions, however, that rightful imposition is outweighed by other substantive concerns (such as safeguarding the freedom of expression and how one may conduct their business), or (c) they think it is appropriate to impose such restrictions, but are opposed to it on practical grounds (e.g., they feel that taxpayer money could be used more prudently on other matters).

Obviously, there are people who believe that such restrictions should be imposed, but at least historically it hasn't been the plurality or majority of people in Anglo-Canada and/or Richmond.

Has there ever even been a legitimate proposal though? This gets brought up in the media every now and then, but I don't think it ever makes it into a city hall debate. Besides, it's not like we'd have a referendum on this, it's up to the council to make this decision.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You've got things backwards. A melting pot is a very integrative societal model. Newcomers are expected to check their old identities at the door and merge into the new country's.

That sounds more like Quebec's interculturalism. In a melting pot model, newcomers are not expected to "check their old identities at the door." It's a process of asymmetrical reciprocal acculturation by virtue of sheer numbers and temporal considerations.

Immigration is a two-way street. If a given society is committed to admitting newcomers, then it should not reasonably expect its collective culture to remain untouched. I'd like a Canada that welcomes newcomers and engages with them as equals, rather than merely tolerating them out of some odd sense of duty.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

That sounds more like Quebec's interculturalism. In a melting pot model, newcomers are not expected to "check their old identities at the door." It's a process of asymmetrical reciprocal acculturation by virtue of sheer numbers and temporal considerations.

Immigration is a two-way street. If a given society is committed to admitting newcomers, then it should not reasonably expect its collective culture to remain untouched. I'd like a Canada that welcomes newcomers and engages with them as equals, rather than merely tolerating them out of some odd sense of duty.

Personally I find this whole "get off my lawn" approach to multiculturalism that leads us to banning foreign language signs in the name of a compromise of the "cultural values" of a place to be a bit embarrassing. But have it Vancouver - it won't be the first time or the last that the tyranny of the majority sought to impose artificial restrictions on what is acceptable in their pure untouched idealistic society.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Personally I find this whole "get off my lawn" approach to multiculturalism that leads us to banning foreign language signs in the name of a compromise of the "cultural values" of a place to be a bit embarrassing. But have it Vancouver - it won't be the first time or the last that the tyranny of the majority sought to impose artificial restrictions on what is acceptable in their pure untouched idealistic society.

Do you know what tyranny of the majority means? In this case it's the Chinese that have the tyranny, not the locals. They are legally imposing their values on a smaller population, despite it negatively affecting it. Textbook.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Do you know what tyranny of the majority means? In this case it's the Chinese that have the tyranny, not the locals. They are legally imposing their values on a smaller population, despite it negatively affecting it. Textbook.

Have the Chinese submitted petitions asking that English-only signage be banned?

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Well the alternative is that we should all constantly adapt to whatever the majority is at the time. I don't see how that's at all more logical than expecting newcomers to try and include themselves in the city and its culture.

What in your opinion is a modern, tolerant view of things?

I don't think there is a universally appropriate view of this matter.

But given that Canada is the product of colonization and mass migration, I think it is unreasonable to expect the instant culture to remain static.

Immigration tends to result in asymmetrical reciprocal acculturation (in the Canadian context, the more powerful culture in this engagement would be the White English speakers or White French speakers), but given sufficient concentration of population, that asymmetry could become more symmetrical or even asymmetrical in the other direction.

I don't see a problem with that. Canada is constantly changing.

By expecting newcomers to adopt the local culture through artificial means, it dismisses their cultures. We need to engage with newcomers as equals. On the basis of what works and what is appealing, cultural elements can be appropriated by whomever whenever.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

The difference is languages that are widely spoken internationally were pretty accessible culturally speaking either historically in terms of literature or more modern forms of popular culture. More plainly there is a strong hook to learn English for one's personal amusement or education.

Chinese culture doesn't quite enjoy the same hook. There aren't vast fields of knowledge or mainstream genres of popular culture one is shut out of by not knowing Chinese.

I'd much rather learn Mandarin or Spanish than French.