Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply the situations are identical. You're right that the threat was/is much more severe in Quebec than it is here and it was kind of a hyperbolic argument. I'm just surprised at the amount of resistance that this potential by-law has from the English-first-language people here. I'd be shocked if you told me that there was a large negative reaction from French-speaking people in Quebec over Bill 101 due to it being "racist."

You're correct. Bill 101 has very high support from francophones. There is no real debate about it in the francophone population.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I was speaking from my own perspective as an English province, but I would apply the same rules to Quebec with French, meaning you should be able to navigate every area in your province knowing only your province's main language. I don't really expect Manitobans to speak French nor do I think Quebecois should be able to speak English. I just think that neither should have to learn a secondary language in order to fully participate in the urban realm.
"

Plus, in the larger cities there would be so many languages to learn anyway, not just Chinese. Should you have to learn Punjabi to navigate Surrey?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I have a couple (white) friends who grew up in Richmond and they both described it pretty much the same way. It seemed unfair, basically a process of having less and less ability to participate in their own city. There aren't many parts of the country where that would be the case.

Are Cantonese/Mandarin offered as classes in public school there?

I think they are at some, but they weren't at mine. We had French, Spanish and Japanese.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Plus, in the larger cities there would be so many languages to learn anyway, not just Chinese. Should you have to learn Punjabi to navigate Surrey?

Well Surrey isn't nearly as Indian as Richmond is Chinese, but I get your point

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Acajack

More importantly, is the threat to English in Vancouver even roughly equivalent to the threat to French in Quebec (c 1975)?

Not in Vancouver, proper, but in Richmond. Maybe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm just surprised at the amount of resistance that this potential by-law has from the English-first-language people here. "

I think that among a certain segment of the Anglo-Canadian population, there is a near-obsession about appearing super-tolerant at all costs. You can compromise on virtually anything provided it makes you seem tolerant.

You see that in the comments of many in the Canadian left who will go to the wall to defend the right and ''desire'' of women to wear a full burka in 35C weahter, and will argue with you that it truly is a choice they freely make in the absence of any coercion whatsoever.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Well Surrey isn't nearly as Indian as Richmond is Chinese, but I get your point

I know. Best example I could find off the top of my head!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Not in Vancouver, proper, but in Richmond. Maybe.

I don't see any way Chinese language or languages could really penetrate officialdom in Richmond. At the most city hall would have staff talking casually in Mandarin or Cantonese amongst themselves, but all their official work, emails and documentation would still be in English. Similar to places in the US where almost everyone is Hispanic.

Home Depot, Petro-Canada, London Drugs and Mac's Convenience Stores, etc. are not going to start operating in Chinese just for Richmond. Or even for Richmond and one or two other cities in the GVRD.

Neither is the transit system, the police or anything else.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think that among a certain segment of the Anglo-Canadian population, there is a near-obsession about appearing super-tolerant at all costs. You can compromise on virtually anything provided it makes you seem tolerant.

You see that in the comments of many in the Canadian left who will go to the wall to defend the right and ''desire'' of women to wear a full burka in 35C weahter, and will argue with you that it truly is a choice they freely make in the absence of any coercion whatsoever.

Yeah I definitely agree that political correctness has gone way too far recently, but that could be an entirely separate thread.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by lio45

Surely you realize that if the sign is in Chinese only, people who don't speak Chinese can't even know what type of business it is. In practice, it's exactly the same thing as refusing to serve non-Chinese ethnicities.

I have walked into stores with Chinese-only signage. Mostly restaurants -- if you walk near one, you can use other clues to determine that it is a restaurant. You don't even need to be a detective. I ate good meals. The folks in the restaurant did their best to speak English and accommodated my requests.

Therefore, it is not exactly the same thing as refusing to serve non-Chinese ethnicities.

I do not speak Mandarin or any other Chinese language.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think that among a certain segment of the Anglo-Canadian population, there is a near-obsession about appearing super-tolerant at all costs. You can compromise on virtually anything provided it makes you seem tolerant.

You see that in the comments of many in the Canadian left who will go to the wall to defend the right and ''desire'' of women to wear a full burka in 35C weahter, and will argue with you that it truly is a choice they freely make in the absence of any coercion whatsoever.

I think you will find there is a lot of people on the right and centre that agree with the sentiment that Private business should be able to chose how they advertise and the unless there is a public safety issue the government should stay out of it.

If you look at the MacDonalds on Alderbridge. The sign does not tell you its a restartant it simply tells you it is something called "MacDonalds"? Does a "BMO" sign tell you its a bank? Does the RBC Lion tell you its a bank? You end up on slippery slop when the government starts to decide what is acceptable advertising and what is not.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by lio45

In practice, as I said, the result is going to be similar.

i.e. I believe that

if you went back in time to the segregated south and observed a "White People Only" store for a long time, taking statistics on the customers going in and out, you'd likely have ~100% white, ~0% black;

if you went to Richmond BC and observed a strictly-Chinese-lettering-only store for a long time, taking statistics on the customers going in and out, you'd likely have ~100% Chinese, ~0% non-Chinese.

Nonsense. I have gone with non-Chinese friends to Chinese-only signage restaurants in Markham. They are not hostile to other ethnicities.

Maybe you are just uncomfortable and intimidated by entering shops with foreign language signage. That's totally fine. Just don't project those issues onto all other people.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

As far as people claiming that this is all because we hate Chinese people here, this couldn't be further from the truth. While there is admittedly resentment towards rich 18 year olds, it's really not nearly as big a deal as some of you are making it out to be. Growing up in Vancouver, and especially in Richmond, it's virtually impossible to not make Chinese friends so this has nothing to do with racism.

Befriending a member of an ethnicity and being racist against said ethnicity is not mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't get why it's okay for Quebec to want to protect French from English but it's racist for us here to try and protect English from Chinese.

Many do not think that Quebec's language laws are acceptable. Among those who think Quebec's language laws are acceptable, many only find it acceptable given the French language's particularly vulnerable status in North America.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

As far as me feeling alienated, I know it does seem silly, but the signs really do play the dominant role in that. While I have been discriminated against by Chinese people before (not being allowed to play with them in elementary school for example) for being white, it really didn't affect me. The city could be 99% Chinese for all I care. I don't know where you're from, and I'm sorry to make assumptions, but I'm going to assume you don't live in a place like this. Trust me, it honestly just sucks where you walk around what you consider your home and you can't understand the signs around you. It doesn't matter if the goods or services they offer are relevant to you, it's a psychological thing. You feel like you're being excluded from your city, and that this city is no longer your home.

Something like 97% of businesses have English signage on them. Only about a dozen to two dozen businesses use Chinese-only signage.

If you find that psychologically troubling, I don't know if that's a level of sensitivity that society should reasonably accommodate, given that it will impose restrictions on others' freedom of expression and how they operate their businesses.

[matthew6]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

You cannot be a full participant in a neighbourhood if you don't know what the various shops sell for example.

Will to be blunt maybe they are not welcomed anyways. A poorly dressed person is not particularly welcomed in a BMW dealership. Plenty of clubs/bars that appeal to a certain demographic are blatantly exclusionary to those who don't fit the mould. Canada is plenty exclusionary in the private sphere without bringing Chinese signs into it. And who knows maybe the shopkeeper who does have Chinese only signs is welcoming to English speakers. Why not go in and so 'hi'?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by casper

I think you will find there is a lot of people on the right and centre that agree with the sentiment that Private business should be able to chose how they advertise and the unless there is a public safety issue the government should stay out of it.

If you look at the MacDonalds on Alderbridge. The sign does not tell you its a restartant it simply tells you it is something called "MacDonalds"? Does a "BMO" sign tell you its a bank? Does the RBC Lion tell you its a bank? You end up on slippery slop when the government starts to decide what is acceptable advertising and what is not.

There's not much of a slippery slope. Make the sign have English on it and you're good to go.

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Befriending a member of an ethnicity and being racist against said ethnicity is not mutually exclusive.



Many do not think that Quebec's language laws are acceptable. Among those who think Quebec's language laws are acceptable, many only find it acceptable given the French language's particularly vulnerable status in North America.

I know they're not, but I think it proves that while resentment of Chinese people exists here, it's not extreme to the point that you wouldn't allow them to participate fully in the culture. Whether they want to or not is a different story. I can only speak for myself, but I guarantee you I would be writing the exact same arguments if signage was in Spanish or German.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm not really sure how else I could answer it. How is it different from a legal point of view? I suppose Google is just being like any other company where they're discriminating against people that aren't skilled enough to do the job. The signs are discriminating against anybody that isn't Chinese. Access to a job at Google isn't a right. Being able to understand your surroundings in your native area should be.

Unless, of course, you are Native.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by matthew6

Will to be blunt maybe they are not welcomed anyways. A poorly dressed person is not particularly welcomed in a BMW dealership. Plenty of clubs/bars that appeal to a certain demographic are blatantly exclusionary to those who don't fit the mould. Canada is plenty exclusionary in the private sphere without bringing Chinese signs into it. And who knows maybe the shopkeeper who does have Chinese only signs is welcoming to English speakers. Why not go in and so 'hi'?

As long as someone tells you to get lost in English, everyone's comfort is preserved and our culture is safe

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

As a matter of fact I would support increased music and television from other cultures and languages. Film has subtitles and music can be appreciated regardless of what language it's in. You cannot be a full participant in a neighbourhood if you don't know what the various shops sell for example. I listen to a lot of Rammstein and I have no idea what they're saying in most of their songs.

There isn't much difference between music and advertising. Both are offering superfluous messages you can either take the time to understand or not. Some advertising is dense, some advertising is juvenile, some advertising requires you to understand the Income Tax Act, some advertising requires you understand calculus, etc. etc. You don't have any right to be able to understand any advertising, music, or message that is promoted by private enterprise, just like you don't have any "right" to understand all the allusions contained within "The Waste Land" by T.S. Eliot.

You are making an arbitrary distinction between arbitrary messages and worse, demanding the government get involved to sort it all out.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think that among a certain segment of the Anglo-Canadian population, there is a near-obsession about appearing super-tolerant at all costs. You can compromise on virtually anything provided it makes you seem tolerant.

You see that in the comments of many in the Canadian left who will go to the wall to defend the right and ''desire'' of women to wear a full burka in 35C weahter, and will argue with you that it truly is a choice they freely make in the absence of any coercion whatsoever.

What a silly argument.

1. In my opinion, trying to be tolerant is far better than being xenophobic, nationalistic, and exclusionary like many other places in the world, including some parts of Canada.

2. It's utterly outrageous to suggest that a woman wearing a burqa in hot weather does not actually want to wear a burqa. Yes, a burqa in hot weather might be uncomfortable. However, people forego comforts all the time if they believe in some higher ideals. It is conceivable that the woman feels her relationship to her God and her devotion to lead a modest life outweighs the temporary discomforts attendant to wearing lots of clothing in hot weather.

Hell, there are times when I would feel more comfortable in hot weather without wearing a shirt, but I nevertheless wear a shirt because I feel kind of odd walking around shirtless in public unless I am at an area where it is very common to do so (like a beach or a swimming pool).

I don't like burqas and I don't like religions, but it is bizarre to conclude that a woman wearing a burqa in hot weather is doing it against her will.