Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It doesn't matter that what is selling isn't relevant to me, this is a matter of principle. There is no way I should be able to speak the de facto language of my city and still not understand what an ad or billboard says. I shouldn't feel like an outsider as a Canadian in Canada.

This is the attitude I meant to quote when I quoted Acajack. Devil's advocate.

What about Canadian born Mandarin-first-language kids? Should they feel like outsiders in the place they were born?

If you are feeling alienated because of your race, that might be an issue far bigger than some harmless signs. Is having English on signs really going to help?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by VIce

Google famously puts up cryptic billboards that require advanced mathematics to decypher. You are only told it is Google upon deciphering the billboard, and then you are directed to apply for a job. To the vast majority of people, the billboard may as well be gibberish specifically because Google wants to very discriminating about their audience. How would this be different, from a legal point of view?

This has nothing to do with legal, this is about common sense. I'm sorry I keep repeating myself over and over in every post, a Canadian should be able to understand their surroundings while in Canada. This is not the same as Google only wanting to hire people good at math.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by VIce

Google famously puts up cryptic billboards that require advanced mathematics to decypher. You are only told it is Google upon deciphering the billboard, and then you are directed to apply for a job. To the vast majority of people, the billboard may as well be gibberish specifically because Google wants to very discriminating about their audience. How would this be different, from a legal point of view?

I don't know the case, but I'd argue that math has nothing to do with identity. That's why its called the universal language. It's superhuman.

Originally Posted by matthew6

I think we should also ban foreign language songs on the radio.

Why? Do you really believe top40 is better for society?

[VIce]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This has nothing to do with legal, this is about common sense. I'm sorry I keep repeating myself over and over in every post, a Canadian should be able to understand their surroundings while in Canada. This is not the same as Google only wanting to hire people good at math.

I didn't ask the question because I wanted a pragmatic answer. I think the pragmatic answer is obvious to everyone. Rather, I was hoping to get some insight as to your thought process as opposed to your views themselves.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

This is the attitude I meant to quote when I quoted Acajack. Devil's advocate.

What about Canadian born Mandarin-first-language kids? Should they feel like outsiders in the place they were born?

If you are feeling alienated because of your race, that might be an issue far bigger than some harmless signs. Is having English on signs really going to help?

I don't quite follow, how would Canadian born Mandarin-first-language kids feel like outsiders? Because of the amount of English everywhere that they are unable to navigate?

If I understood the question correctly (if I didn't, let me know and I'll try again to answer) then it's not the same, because this area has English as the main language. Whether or not you were born here is besides the point; I have mentioned several times now that I, for example, was not.

I feel really narcissistic by constantly using myself as an example, but here I go again. When I immigrated to Canada, I felt like an outsider, because I was. I didn't speak the language at all, I didn't know the culture or anything like that. But I learned the language, because this seems like an obvious thing that you should do when you move to a foreign country. If Mandarin-first-language kids feel like outsiders here, whether they were born here or not, it's their job to learn the language to no longer feel that way, not the city's job to make sure they can read everything in Mandarin. I just feel that it's common sense that immigrants should adapt to their new home, not the other way around.

As far as me feeling alienated, I know it does seem silly, but the signs really do play the dominant role in that. While I have been discriminated against by Chinese people before (not being allowed to play with them in elementary school for example) for being white, it really didn't affect me. The city could be 99% Chinese for all I care. I don't know where you're from, and I'm sorry to make assumptions, but I'm going to assume you don't live in a place like this. Trust me, it honestly just sucks where you walk around what you consider your home and you can't understand the signs around you. It doesn't matter if the goods or services they offer are relevant to you, it's a psychological thing. You feel like you're being excluded from your city, and that this city is no longer your home.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by VIce

I didn't ask the question because I wanted a pragmatic answer. I think the pragmatic answer is obvious to everyone. Rather, I was hoping to get some insight as to your thought process as opposed to your views themselves.

I'm not really sure how else I could answer it. How is it different from a legal point of view? I suppose Google is just being like any other company where they're discriminating against people that aren't skilled enough to do the job. The signs are discriminating against anybody that isn't Chinese. Access to a job at Google isn't a right. Being able to understand your surroundings in your native area should be.

Sorry if I'm still not answering this properly, I don't know what else I can explain.

[VIce]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm not really sure how else I could answer it. How is it different from a legal point of view? I suppose Google is just being like any other company where they're discriminating against people that aren't skilled enough to do the job. The signs are discriminating against anybody that isn't Chinese. Access to a job at Google isn't a right. Being able to understand your surroundings in your native area should be.

Sorry if I'm still not answering this properly, I don't know what else I can explain.

Access to a job at Google isn't a right, but neither is access to Chinese food. The question isn't about the product or service or opportunity being advertised. These signs could hypothetically be for recruitment to a company where speaking Chinese is a requirement, after all, just as Google requires people who are good at math, and perhaps a sign directing people to a comic expo could be written in Klingon to weed out people who aren't "real" trekkies. Rather, the issue is that a majority of the community cannot understand it, and are thus being excluded or otherwise discriminated.

The idea of asking about law is this: most of us agree that Google's billboards are perfectly fine. Now, if you want to pass a law worded such that I (as a totally average anglo-Canadian) can understand all the signs around me, how can that be done without inadvertently also banning Google's signs?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by VIce

Access to a job at Google isn't a right, but neither is access to Chinese food. The question isn't about the product or service or opportunity being advertised. These signs could hypothetically be for recruitment to a company where speaking Chinese is a requirement, after all, just as Google requires people who are good at math, and perhaps a sign directing people to a comic expo could be written in Klingon to weed out people who aren't "real" trekkies. Rather, the issue is that a majority of the community cannot understand it, and are thus being excluded or otherwise discriminated.

The idea of asking about law is this: most of us agree that Google's billboards are perfectly fine. Now, if you want to pass a law worded such that I (as a totally average anglo-Canadian) can understand all the signs around me, how can that be done without inadvertently also banning Google's signs?

Well the law would be that all signs have to have English on them, which Google's sign does. It's clear that it's a math problem, so even if I can't figure out the answer I can at least understand that this is an equation that will lead me to the website. This wouldn't happen with a bunch of Chinese characters.

[ozonemania]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This has nothing to do with legal, this is about common sense. I'm sorry I keep repeating myself over and over in every post, a Canadian should be able to understand their surroundings while in Canada. This is not the same as Google only wanting to hire people good at math.

I understand your point, but I posit that most businesses that have Chinese-only signs are businesses where the owners aren't really that competent in English, and perhaps aren't comfortable enough to deal in English. What if their business/profession uses specialized language that doesn't cover the everyday colloquial? Why would any business want to limit their customers unless there was a self-limitation? They're not sitting in their offices going: "Oh I hate English so I'm not going to put out a sign".

I think I should say that I think that all Canadian businesses SHOULD have signs with English/French, but I also appreciate the reasons why some business don't. I don't buy the whole nefarious motivations thing.

Someone earlier mentioned the "Special Chinese Only Menu". They actually do exist. But if translated into English, would something like "Cloud Ear Princess Hot Pot" really help you? Or you could go simple, like "Duck in Sauce". Again, not helpful. You're not going to find "General Tso Chicken" or "Won Ton Soup" on these menus. It's common practice in Vancouver if you're in a Chinese restaurant to ask if they have a Chef's menu, and if you can't read chinese, you can ask them what they recommend and they will describe.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm sorry I keep repeating myself over and over in every post, a Canadian should be able to understand their surroundings while in Canada.

Interesting thing to say, considering that signs are unilingual nowadays in most, by far, of the second most populated province.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Interesting thing to say, considering that signs are unilingual nowadays in most, by far, of the second most populated province.

Most business signs are unilingual in all provinces. It's just that the single language used on those signs varies from place to place.

(For the record, I am pretty sure GlassCity does understand and speak French. Not sure that that was central to his point though.)

[ssiguy]

Canada is a MULTICULTURAL nation but that does not change the fact that we are a BI-LINGUAL nation as well.

It is kind of sad that it has come to this, so many businesses refusing to use one of the official languages of the country but these are signs. Let's repeat that, these are signs........things used to inform, invite, warn, and have one thing in common, they are designed to get one's attention.

When something is designed to get one's attraction it can also be a distraction. Everyone in Canada has the right to know what something that is specifically designed to get their attention means..............in one of our official languages.

If someone wants to offer services only in another language, I couldn't care less. However, these are signs which are constructed purposefully to get one's attention and hence can be a distraction and hence Canadians have a right to know what it says.

If a restaurant wants to only provide menus in Cantonese, I don't care but any object that is in any way part of the public realm must be accessible for all in the public and that means either English or French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Interesting thing to say, considering that signs are unilingual nowadays in most, by far, of the second most populated province.

I also think a subtext to his point was to say that having to learn two languages in order to feel at home everywhere in the country is already hard enough (proof - only 17% of Canadians have done so) without having to navigate (what might at one point become, I guess) wholly Chinese areas, for example.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by matthew6

I think we should also ban foreign language songs on the radio.

Exactly, wouldn't want to make proper Canadians feel like an outsider in their own country would we?

[matthew6]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Everyone in Canada has the right to know what something that is specifically designed to get their attention .

They do?

Does this apply also to religious buildings? Mosques? Synagogues?

I think this country has bigger concerns than what is printed on signs in certain ethnic enclaves. Signs don't drive drunk or rape or abduct prostitutes off of street corners. They don't bite either.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't get why it's okay for Quebec to want to protect French from English but it's racist for us here to try and protect English from Chinese.

I respect your views a lot and don't necessarily agree that a double standard like this is acceptable, but then again - is there really such a double standard?

More importantly, is the threat to English in Vancouver even roughly equivalent to the threat to French in Quebec (c 1975)?

Do native English speakers in Vancouver speak Cantonese or Mandarin among themselves? Is there are drift away from using English in public administration towards Mandarin or Cantonese? Are people of non-Chinese origins (be they English Canadian, Philipino or Indian, etc.) adopting Mandarin or Cantonese as the main language they lead their lives in?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

(For the record, I am pretty sure GlassCity does understand and speak French. Not sure that that was central to his point though.)

If he's actually fluent, then I'll withdraw my point that he isn't going to be able to "understand his surroundings while in Canada" everywhere anyway and that it has nothing to do with Chinese.

(Even though it would obviously still apply to most Anglo Canadians.)

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

As far as me feeling alienated, I know it does seem silly, but the signs really do play the dominant role in that. While I have been discriminated against by Chinese people before (not being allowed to play with them in elementary school for example) for being white, it really didn't affect me. The city could be 99% Chinese for all I care. I don't know where you're from, and I'm sorry to make assumptions, but I'm going to assume you don't live in a place like this. Trust me, it honestly just sucks where you walk around what you consider your home and you can't understand the signs around you. It doesn't matter if the goods or services they offer are relevant to you, it's a psychological thing. You feel like you're being excluded from your city, and that this city is no longer your home.

I have a couple (white) friends who grew up in Richmond and they both described it pretty much the same way. It seemed unfair, basically a process of having less and less ability to participate in their own city. There aren't many parts of the country where that would be the case.

Are Cantonese/Mandarin offered as classes in public school there?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by matthew6

I think this country has bigger concerns than what is printed on signs in certain ethnic enclaves.

I don't recall anyone saying this was among this countries' biggest concerns...

The fact that there are bigger concerns out there doesn't automatically turn it into a non-concern. It can still be a valid minor concern, and people can still decide to maybe want to do something about it. Among other things.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also think a subtext to his point was to say that having to learn two languages in order to feel at home everywhere in the country is already hard enough (proof - only 17% of Canadians have done so) without having to navigate (what might at one point become, I guess) wholly Chinese areas, for example.

You're right that I am "fluent"(as much as one can be after not speaking it for over two years) in French and that it doesn't have anything to do with my point.

I was speaking from my own perspective as an English province, but I would apply the same rules to Quebec with French, meaning you should be able to navigate every area in your province knowing only your province's main language. I don't really expect Manitobans to speak French nor do I think Quebecois should be able to speak English. I just think that neither should have to learn a secondary language in order to fully participate in the urban realm.

Originally Posted by geotag277

Exactly, wouldn't want to make proper Canadians feel like an outsider in their own country would we?

As a matter of fact I would support increased music and television from other cultures and languages. Film has subtitles and music can be appreciated regardless of what language it's in. You cannot be a full participant in a neighbourhood if you don't know what the various shops sell for example. I listen to a lot of Rammstein and I have no idea what they're saying in most of their songs.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I respect your views a lot and don't necessarily agree that a double standard like this is acceptable, but then again - is there really such a double standard?

More importantly, is the threat to English in Vancouver even roughly equivalent to the threat to French in Quebec (c 1975)?

Do native English speakers in Vancouver speak Cantonese or Mandarin among themselves? Is there are drift away from using English in public administration towards Mandarin or Cantonese? Are people of non-Chinese origins (be they English Canadian, Philipino or Indian, etc.) adopting Mandarin or Cantonese as the main language they lead their lives in?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply the situations are identical. You're right that the threat was/is much more severe in Quebec than it is here and it was kind of a hyperbolic argument. I'm just surprised at the amount of resistance that this potential by-law has from the English-first-language people here. I'd be shocked if you told me that there was a large negative reaction from French-speaking people in Quebec over Bill 101 due to it being "racist."