Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Doug

If it is purely a massage parlour in a seedy strip mall then the answer is likely yes, or more accurately used to be yes because those places don't really exist anymore.

They most certainly exist. To clarify, I know this primarily from a summer job working with the City, but virtually every "massage parlour" on the second floor of a strip mall in Toronto (there are LOTS) is a shady operation. To what extent I don't know, but I have had the door answered by someone in lingerie who started yelling "No English!" as soon as I said I was with the City. Usually I just ignored them and noted that there was in fact a business within said unit.

[1overcosc]

In my hometown of Russell Township, Ontario, the township passed a bylaw a few years ago requiring all businesses to have their exterior signage in both English & French.

For context: Russell is traditionally one of the most lingustically mixed communities in all of Canada. Way back in the beginning it was settled in almost equal numbers by both anglophone & francophone farmers. Two villages were founded in the 1840s. Russell village (named for the township--I know its confusing) was founded by anglophones, and Embrun was founded by francophones. By the end of the 19th century, however, both communities became mixed enough that the founding group was two-thirds, and the minority language was one-third, in each village. The township spent the 20th century as a rare example of side-by-side anglophone-francophone co-existence in Canada.

Since the 1970s, though, the apple cart has been upset by suburbanization. When Highway 417 was completed in the 1970s the township became linked to Ottawa by freeway putting the downtown core of Ottawa only a 30 minute drive away from the two villages. As a result the Township increasingly fell to exurban sprawl. And most of those new exurban migrants were anglophones (fun fact, many of them are from Atlantic Canada--my high school was almost half Newfoundlanders & Nova Scotians). As a result the proportion of Francophones has been steadily falling ever since. The percentage who speak French at home fell from about 60% in 1980 to something like 35% today and is on track to bottom out to 20% or less by 2030.

Compounding this is the overall transition that all small towns in North America are making, where the retail scene shifts away from local business and towards big chain stores. From the early 2000s on, new retail stores increasingly began operating exclusively in English with English-only signs, compounding the decline of French in the community.

In response to the fears and aggravation of the Francophones the township passed a bylaw requiring bilingual signage on all new exterior signs (with existing signs grandfathered). An angryphone activist and a Francophone libertarian got together to sue the township, but the courts ruled against them and allowed the law to stand.

Ultimately, though, it's not going to do anything at all. The Francophone community is slowly eroding to non-existence. Once the generation of Francophone seniors dies off the township will become an anglophone one through and through.

Richmond is not comparable. It's not like the city is on track to become exclusively Chinese-speaking.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

The supposed 'anti-Chinese' attitude in Metro Van is way overstated on this thread.
It's one of the most non-racist places in the world.

Metro Van is one of the most non racist places in the world huh? Source please? Or is that just your opinion because you live there and like it?

I'm not even sure how you would measure such a thing, but the traditional measure would probably be hate crime rate per % population, and by that measure, it isn't even the "least racist" city in Canada, let alone the world:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2014001/article/14028-eng.htm

I don't think the anti Chinese sentiment coming out of BC is overstated, it exists, there is a history - both political and otherwise - and several posters from BC in this thread alone are doing no favours to it in terms of speaking their mind on the issue. I have not seen a similar narrative from any other part of Canada except posters from BC. People from Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton, etc. etc. don't jump in with the same statements which express anti Chinese sentiment as people from BC, even on this forum.

I'm sure you could live your whole life in Vancouver and not encounter racism or anti-Chinese sentiment, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and is not more prevalent and accepted than likely almost any other place in Canada.

[Metro-One]

And those negative comments are coming from the same few posters who always spin anything regarding BC negatively, so no surprise from their comments.

Many of them will change their tunes in other threads and speak negatively about Vancouver's housing prices and literally site Chinese and foreign ownership for the high real-estate prices and "ghost neighbourhoods" (Ghost neighbourhoods being another completely overblown semi fictitious problem in Vancouver).

What is your expertise regarding BC?

And yes, BC has had some very bad racism in its history regarding Asians, it is almost as if during the days of sanctioned racism and segregation throughout the west (and indeed the world) BC (due to social, economic, and geographical reasons) had a lot more direct involvement with Asians than other places in Canada, why could that be, hmmm, oh I know, because it is on the Pacific Rim and was Canada's doorway to and from Asia! The CP-Rail being built was also another major factor regarding that.

I knew this thread would become comical and an open invitation to again speak negative of BC.

[esquire]

I don't necessarily think it's a BC thing. I think anyplace where you have a really large group of immigrants with a critical mass that allows them to carry on without engaging the broader community, you're going to run into this sort of thing.

Most (all?) Canadian cities obviously have large immigrant communities, but the Chinese in the lower mainland area take it to a different level. It's clearly a huge group. I think that might be why you're seeing a local backlash against things like Chinese signs.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I knew this thread would become comical and an open invitation to again speak negative of BC.

BC has it's warts in it's history just like any other province. This thread is not an invitation to take a giant dump on BC as much as it is a discussion regarding it's past and the ripple effect it can have on it's present and future.

If you were so thin skinned you didn't want a single negative thing to be written about your province, you shouldn't have started a thread about it.

[casper]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't necessarily think it's a BC thing. I think anyplace where you have a really large group of immigrants with a critical mass that allows them to carry on without engaging the broader community, you're going to run into this sort of thing.

Most (all?) Canadian cities obviously have large immigrant communities, but the Chinese in the lower mainland area take it to a different level. It's clearly a huge group. I think that might be why you're seeing a local backlash against things like Chinese signs.

Growing up in East Vancouver, my high school was a complete rational blend with no specific majority. I would agree with the sentiment that generally BC is a very ethnically tolerant place.

I don't Chinese immigration to BC is any different that the waves of immigrants that have historically settled in other places.

There was a wave of French immigration that settled Quebec. There were various waves of European immigrants that settled Ontario. (Given the size and population base of China I do think Europe is an appropriate comparison).

The parries were settled by waves of immigration from Eastern Europe. Immigration to Quebec these days is dominated by the middle east and French speaking Africa.

This is just the normal pattern of Canadian immigration.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

"thank you" is "tak," which u.k. english borrowed (this may be too nice a word for what went on then) in viking times. today it still exists as "ta".

Are you sure about that? Haven't looked it up but I have always assumed that it was straight from Old Lower German.

The thorn (th sound, þ) is a d in modern Standard German. That shift took place sometime in the Middle Ages IIRC.

(for example, modern Standard German durst (thirst), modern Standard German dieb (thief), and so on.)

I would bet that modern Standard German danke (verb danken, to thank) and modern English thank both trace their roots straight to the exact same early West, not North, Germanic origin.

But I'm not 100% sure, so you might actually be right. In fact the answer is likely a few clicks away if we want it.

(Anyway, regardless, the even earlier roots of tak/thanks/danke/etc. are all the same in proto Germanic, whether it's Denmark or Lower Saxony...)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

What we're talking about here are business names - they can and should be called or represented in any (otherwise legally acceptable) manner that their owners deem appropriate. Language is not even relevant here - if someone wants to name their store #Δ$λ†^! that should be their prerogative.

It's another matter if their employees don't speak the local official language or won't serve customers of other or certain ethnicities however, but, as far as I can tell that's not happening here.

Surely you realize that if the sign is in Chinese only, people who don't speak Chinese can't even know what type of business it is. In practice, it's exactly the same thing as refusing to serve non-Chinese ethnicities.

I'm okay with it, personally, but I can understand why others aren't.

My view (only my personal POV) is that it's YOUR business, so you should have the right to refuse to serve non-Chinese-speakers, or blacks, or Jews, or whoever you want. As was said already in the thread at least a few times -- well, not in those exact words yet, but it's the very same idea -- there are plenty of blacks out there and their money is as green as the whites', so if a given store owner wants to deliberately exclude good customers and do less business, that's their decision and their problem.

But... I can see very very very well why many people will frown on businesses being allowed to refuse -- in practice -- to serve non-Chinese-speakers.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

It's a private business, no?

No, Acajack is right on that one.

You're perfectly free to refuse entry to your own home (fully private) to blacks, gays, women, Jews, whatnot. For whatever reason.

On the other hand, in this country, if you're running a business, you don't get to enjoy the same "rights" about who you let in your store -- and who you don't -- as you do with your home. Legally, there's a difference in privacy level. Businesses aren't strictly "private".

(My apologies if many others replied to your post in the meantime already... Haven't yet read the whole thread -- it appeared AND grew to 11 pages since my last SSP visit!!)

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by rousseau

.
I'll be honest: Waterloo has its fair share of Little Lord Fauntleroys from China zipping around town in brand new Mercedes, BMWs, Lexuses and Audis, and it's a little hard not to wince. Excessive wealth anywhere is shot through with injustice, but in China it is especially soaked in blood and corruption (exact figures are difficult to pin down, of course, but some reports indicate upwards of 100,000 discrete protests occurring in China per year involving millions of people, virtually all of them at the local level in reaction to corrupt officials--that's a lot of mashed heads and bloodstained jail cells keeping Daddy's factory in business).

This observation, though, in keeping with my liberal ideals, is not meant to suggest that anyone standing on Canadian soil should be given anything other than equitable treatment, it needs be said.

I went to U Waterloo for undergrad, and the vast majority of the Chinese there are from Hong Kong. So they're extremely wealthy, but they're probably not too related to the corruption in mainland China. HK is a pretty well respected and "clean" area to conduct business; of course, lots of people make lots of money there.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I went to U Waterloo for undergrad, and the vast majority of the Chinese there are from Hong Kong. So they're extremely wealthy, but they're probably not too related to the corruption in mainland China. HK is a pretty well respected and "clean" area to conduct business; of course, lots of people make lots of money there.

Really? That's interesting. I go to University Plaza once a week for food, and have never heard Cantonese spoken anywhere. Just Mandarin. My impression from speaking with kids working as servers in the restaurants is that virtually all of the Chinese exchange students are from mainland China.

Would be interesting to see some actual numbers on this.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Really? That's interesting. I go to University Plaza once a week for food, and have never heard Cantonese spoken anywhere. Just Mandarin. My impression from speaking with kids working as servers in the restaurants is that virtually all of the Chinese exchange students are from mainland China.

Would be interesting to see some actual numbers on this.

That's pretty interesting.

Certainly, as mainland China becomes wealthier, more people will be willing to send students overseas and pay international tuition fees.

But yeah, granted I didn't hang out with many Chinese folks in school, my impression was that they are mostly from HK (at least the wealthy ones). One of my roommates was an HK Chinese person, and he definitely had a good number of HK Chinese friends.

But I can't differentiate between Cantonese and Mandarin. Also, is it possible that Mandarin is becoming more common in HK? Idk.

edit -- also, University Plaza... brings back a lot of memories. There's this vegetarian Chinese place (they also serve meat, but on the sign it says Vegetarian) that is amazing there. A bit of a hole in the wall joint.

[memememe76]

Surely you realize that if the sign is in Chinese only, people who don't speak Chinese can't even know what type of business it is. In practice, it's exactly the same thing as refusing to serve non-Chinese ethnicities.

No, it's not. If I wanted to buy something at a business with a Chinese-only sign (which, again, is rare!), I can still come in, point at whatever I want, and pay the bill. Prices will likely be in Canadian Dollars.

Or, I take my Chinese-speaking friend to translate. Or I use my Google Translate app. Me being non-Chinese does not mean I am barred from their business.

There are a lot of English businesses where I have no clue what business they run by their signs alone. I have to walk in sometime and figure it out.

[MrOilers]

I think the law (across Canada) should allow signs to be written in whatever language the business owner wants.

If they want to add a law stating that signage in other languages also must have either an English or French translation on that same sign, I would be OK with that, too.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by esquire

The government is the one with official languages. You and I (or our businesses) can use whatever language we like in our private lives.

Signs may be a municipal jurisdiction but that does not change the fact we have two official languages and Chinese isn't one of them. The shop owners with Chinese only signs insult every other ethnic group and encourage their customers not to become fully integrated into Canada. End of story.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by rousseau

...I don't want to be a hateful person, honestly I don't...but I don't think I ever want to see the word "Newfoundland" again. You've killed that word for me. Is there a chance we could establish a Newfoundland-free zone on this forum? Just for sanity's sake?

Since there has been a significant amount of support for SHH and his Newfoundland insights, does the bolded text mean you're no longer going to visit this forum??

[shreddog]

As I stated earlier, as long as important government-regulated aspects of the business is in English (safety, health, disabled access, etc) I don't care what language or not a business uses. If their choice results in a narrowing of their potential market that is there decision, not societies.

And if Canada's main languages evolve over the next 20, 50, 100 years, I personally don't care. We are defined by much more than just the languages we speak. Though I do admit that there have been some very good points brought up regarding the importance of language to culture and self/group definition. While I don't necessarily disagree with the points made, I don't fully agree either.

Though it doesn't totally map to the story of Canada, remember that for most of the past 1000 years, the predominant language in the 416 was Iroquois. The French has it's day for a few years, followed by the past couple 100 where English was the dominant one. Who knows where the future will go. Such is the life of living in a land framed by "conquest".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You're just being argumentative and dismissive. The petition is one thing, but then there's this:



This is not happening in the GTA. A fluke? Totally random? Of course not. The differences between Vancouver and Toronto here are interesting. I'm curious about the possible reasons for those differences.

I am not being dismissive and argumentative. I just find it surprising that someone as smart and lucid as you is putting forth a sort of ''this sort of thing could never happen in Toronto" argument.

Of course it could.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

What about the hundreds of thousands of kids born in Richmond who don't speak English as a first language? Should Richmond be English for ever and ever and ever no matter what? .
.

This is not in any way related to the post of mine that you were responding to.