Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[SignalHillHiker]

Ugh, O.K., fair enough. I enjoy it, but if ye don't... well, I'm not trying to piss people off.

I'll retreat to the St. John's section as much as possible. I'll still pop back for some threads, such as Post Your Photos, but I'll try to resist participating in these mainland debate/discussion threads.

And no, I'm not being oblivious and dramatic. I know I'm weird. I know you guys know every other detail of my life and I know nothing other than your usernames. I'm very aware I'm not behaving as the rest. I just can't be another way, and I wouldn't want to be, so I'll try to keep it to the area it's normal and accepted.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I think one difference is that many of the Chinese in Vancouver are wealthy. Outside of Richmond, they also supposedly buy a lot of condo units in the downtown.

If you look at a demographics map of Toronto, it's like a donut, with the visible minorities on the outside, and the downtown is surprisingly white. Downtown is still quite diverse, but not at all like say, Brampton or Markham.

Some people feel in Vancouver seem to think that there's an elite wealthy Chinese minority, kind of like the old Anglo community in Montreal before the Quiet Revolution.

So perceived wealth and power may have something to do with it.

You can't really make any generalization about wealth when talking about hundreds of thousands of people, but one important difference in the history of Asian-Canadians in BC&AB vs Asian-Canadians in ON.

There were thousands of Chinese and Japanese in western Canada by 1900, amid comparable white and aboriginal populations in some communities. Many had worked on the railroad and the gold rush. There were almost no Chinese in the Eastern Canada until after the railroad was complete, and even then only very few until 1947.

After the Head Tax and 1923 immigration bans on "black" and "yellow" people (King was a dickhead), existing Asian, black, and Aboriginal people were not allowed to compete with white men and women for jobs. That's why every two-horse town in rural AB and BC has a Chinese restaurant. Many Chinese had already been in Canada for 3 generations! That's longer than many european immigrants. Had King not banned immigration for a quarter century, Canada would likely be much different today. Chinese-only businesses popped up in China towns across the country, usually on the most undesirable streets and red-light districts. Remember that western cities were in their infancy at this time.

Discrimination was really bad from 1923-1947. Of course there was the whole Japanese internment and white people overgeneralizing and a whole bunch of racist shit.

Immigration and full-citizen status only became possible again after WWII.

Those are just a few lowlights. Let's not go down that road again.

[geotag277]

The thing is that these things are painfully and embarrassingly recent. Like one generation away. These kinds of sentiments and entitled political attitudes don't just disappear quickly. It's absolutely a bigger problem in AB/BC than Ontario. I can fully attest to that.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Ugh, O.K., fair enough. I enjoy it, but if ye don't... well, I'm not trying to piss people off.

I'll retreat to the St. John's section as much as possible. I'll still pop back for some threads, such as Post Your Photos, but I'll try to resist participating in these mainland debate/discussion threads.

And no, I'm not being oblivious and dramatic. I know I'm weird. I know you guys know every other detail of my life and I know nothing other than your usernames. I'm very aware I'm not behaving as the rest. I just can't be another way, and I wouldn't want to be, so I'll try to keep it to the area it's normal and accepted.

If it means anything, I love reading your posts and have thoroughly enjoyed learning so much about a place that to be honest isn't brought up a lot in this part of the country. I've never understood the obsession with on-topic posting anyway. Discussions with you tend to be much more natural and casual.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Don't scare SignalHill away, he knows a looker in GP that I need to hook up with later.

[casper]

On the topic of signage, I agree with the sentiment that the business owner can put up signage in what ever language they like and can target whatever client base they want to target.

Business discriminate against people all the time in different ways.

- The restaurant that has a dress code.
- The Punjabi language movie theatre. The English language movie theatre.
- The Italian store on commercial drive, where you will get great service in Italian and ok service in broken English.
- The car rental company that will not rent a car to someone under the age of 21.
- The first nations housing authority that only rents to first nations.
- The Costco that will only sell you a membership if you fall into a certain demographic.
- The Wholesale supply place that will only sell to you if you are electrician or Plummer or whatever.

Private business has a right to decide who is there target market.

I think the government should stay out of signage with some very limited exemptions:
- I can see requiring the Name and address of the business to be in English (for emergency response people to locate the location)
- I could see some of the safety labelling being in English.
- Maybe require the return policy signs to be in English.

For the advertising aspects, I think it is silly to have government officials interfere. Next thing you have government officials arguing with business over silly things, e.g., is "crepe" English or French. Is "Latte" English of Italian.

I would hope the Municipality enforces the laws it brings in. I would also hope that there enforcement people have more productive things to do that benefit society than go around inspecting advertising.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Ugh, O.K., fair enough. I enjoy it, but if ye don't... well, I'm not trying to piss people off.

I'll retreat to the St. John's section as much as possible. I'll still pop back for some threads, such as Post Your Photos, but I'll try to resist participating in these mainland debate/discussion threads.

And no, I'm not being oblivious and dramatic. I know I'm weird. I know you guys know every other detail of my life and I know nothing other than your usernames. I'm very aware I'm not behaving as the rest. I just can't be another way, and I wouldn't want to be, so I'll try to keep it to the area it's normal and accepted.

dude I didn't mean to offend you. do your thing.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

You can't really make any generalization about wealth when talking about hundreds of thousands of people, but one important difference in the history of Asian-Canadians in BC&AB vs Asian-Canadians in ON.

There were thousands of Chinese and Japanese in western Canada by 1900, amid comparable white and aboriginal populations in some communities. Many had worked on the railroad and the gold rush. There were almost no Chinese in the Eastern Canada until after the railroad was complete, and even then only very few until 1947.

After the Head Tax and 1923 immigration bans on "black" and "yellow" people (King was a dickhead), existing Asian, black, and Aboriginal people were not allowed to compete with white men and women for jobs. That's why every two-horse town in rural AB and BC has a Chinese restaurant. Many Chinese had already been in Canada for 3 generations! That's longer than many european immigrants. Had King not banned immigration for a quarter century, Canada would likely be much different today. Chinese-only businesses popped up in China towns across the country, usually on the most undesirable streets and red-light districts. Remember that western cities were in their infancy at this time.

Discrimination was really bad from 1923-1947. Of course there was the whole Japanese internment and white people overgeneralizing and a whole bunch of racist shit.

Immigration and full-citizen status only became possible again after WWII.

Those are just a few lowlights. Let's not go down that road again.

Well said. I'm just echoing some sentiments I've seen in comments online related to this discussion. There seems to be intense resentment in Vancouver, and its usually not about language signage or assimilation. Quite often, it's just ranting and raving enviously about wealthy Chinese folks buying great cars and homes. And also blaming high real estate prices entirely on Chinese folks.

[SignalHillHiker]

Not offended at all, I promise. I didn't meet myself just yesterday. I know it's a fair reaction.

I hate it, but it's not incomprehensible.

But, let's start now. Casper has a great OT post. We can all continue from there.

[spaceprobe]

Originally Posted by rousseau

600,000 Chinese in Toronto as compared to 400,000 in Vancouver. That's a lot more by any standard. And Markham has a much larger Chinese population (115,000) concentrated in a smaller part of the city than Richmond (89,000), which has Chinese residents spread out throughout the city (going by the ward/neighbourhood demographics on the official websites of the respective cities).

Again, I'm not suggesting that people in Toronto are intrinsically less xenophobic than people in Vancouver. But the history of friction between Chinese and non-Chinese in Vancouver seems rather prominent by comparison, at least from what I've seen. As these are the two go-to cities for Chinese immigration to Canada, it's only natural that you might wonder at reasons for the discrepancy.

The best I can come up with, and you mention it too, is the difference in demographic proportions. I don't know what it's like in Vancouver, but while east Asians are literally everywhere in Toronto, you really only feel potentially overwhelmed by Chinese demographic prominence in out-of-the-way Markham. My sense is that it's not hard to avoid Chinese restaurants in the GTA if that's not your thing.

Toronto has 500,000 in a population of 6 million. Vancouver has 400,000 in a population of 2.4 million. The other reason I can think of is that most of Richmond lives only in the west part of Richmond. Most of Richmond is farmland or industrial warehouses, and where the Chinese signs are prolific, it is very much a city-center type area. Basically, all the questionable Chinese signs are in a 3 large-block region. People live in a very concentrated region, and the commercial stores are highly concentrated. On the other hand, Markham is very much spread out and suburban, and the Chinese signs are spread out in malls that are mostly dispersed from one another. It is not as noticeable there. Another possible reason is that most of Markham is a very new city (being in the 905 growth area of Toronto). Richmond has more history without an Asian population in it.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Well said. I'm just echoing some sentiments I've seen in comments online related to this discussion. There seems to be intense resentment in Vancouver, and its usually not about language signage or assimilation. Quite often, it's just ranting and raving enviously about wealthy Chinese folks buying great cars and homes. And also blaming high real estate prices entirely on Chinese folks.

It's no surprise that many people advocating against these signs in this thread are also ones who contribute to other threads about high real estate prices and complain about the same people who use the language from these signs.

It could just be a coincidence sure - it is logically sound to be against both things - but practically speaking it does surely blur the lines between a legitimate grievance versus using any and every excuse to blame and rant and rave about a certain demographic.

If this was regarding Russian signs in Vancouver, it wouldn't even be a discussion, and I bet the "usual suspects" wouldn't have much of anything to say.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by spaceprobe

Toronto has 500,000 in a population of 6 million. Vancouver has 400,000 in a population of 2.4 million.

In the 2011 National Household Survey Toronto had 600,000 Chinese in a population of 5.5 million (http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/...1=Ethnic%20origin&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1). Vancouver had 432,000 Chinese in a population of 2.3 million
(http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/...earchPR=01&A1=All&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1) (For some reason the 2006 number of 400,000 popped up when I first checked it). Still a far larger Chinese presence in Toronto than in Vancouver, though the really Chinese neighbourhoods like Markham are mostly out of the way. By contrast with Richmond, as you characterize it. But Markham itself is very, very Chinese. It's not possible not to feel engulfed by the Chinese presence when you are there.

I don't really sense much resentment against Chinese in Toronto. Or, at least, not to the degree that it appears to occur in Vancouver, anyway.

[rousseau]

.

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Quite often, it's just ranting and raving enviously about wealthy Chinese folks buying great cars and homes.

I'll be honest: Waterloo has its fair share of Little Lord Fauntleroys from China zipping around town in brand new Mercedes, BMWs, Lexuses and Audis, and it's a little hard not to wince. Excessive wealth anywhere is shot through with injustice, but in China it is especially soaked in blood and corruption (exact figures are difficult to pin down, of course, but some reports indicate upwards of 100,000 discrete protests occurring in China per year involving millions of people, virtually all of them at the local level in reaction to corrupt officials--that's a lot of mashed heads and bloodstained jail cells keeping Daddy's factory in business).

This observation, though, in keeping with my liberal ideals, is not meant to suggest that anyone standing on Canadian soil should be given anything other than equitable treatment, it needs be said.

[MonkeyRonin]

Expect in the coming years to have China be seen more and more like how the US is right now. The "ugly American" stereotype will be replaced by an "ugly Chinese (nationality rather than ethnicity)" one. It's not a racial thing, just the old resentment of those with power.

And that's definitely where some of the resentment in this case is coming from. I'm sure even fewer people would be concerned if those were Korean or Thai signs.

[ozonemania]

Originally Posted by rousseau

In the 2011 National Household Survey Toronto had 600,000 Chinese in a population of 5.5 million (http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/...1=Ethnic%20origin&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1). Vancouver had 432,000 Chinese in a population of 2.3 million
(http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/...earchPR=01&A1=All&B1=All&Custom=&TABID=1) (For some reason the 2006 number of 400,000 popped up when I first checked it). Still a far larger Chinese presence in Toronto than in Vancouver, though the really Chinese neighbourhoods like Markham are mostly out of the way. By contrast with Richmond, as you characterize it. But Markham itself is very, very Chinese. It's not possible not to feel engulfed by the Chinese presence when you are there.

I don't really sense much resentment against Chinese in Toronto. Or, at least, not to the degree that it appears to occur in Vancouver, anyway.

I don't think you really get the Vancouver situation. Sure, there are people in Vancouver that genuinely resent the Chinese because they are Chinese (like ssiguy who just HAD to tell us that he didn't find Asian men sexually attractive); there are others that merely resent these Chinese because of the wealth they have and their alleged effects on real estate and affordability. And so on. The reasons are diverse.

Most people, however, don't resent the Chinese, as a people. Why? Because the Chinese have been part of the social fabric of the city for as long as it has been in existence. They exist in all walks of life, in all socio-economic classes, throughout the metro area, and have numerous everyday examples of role models and well-respected people. The Chinese presence is seamless in Vancouver society.

What does this mean? It means that the majority of people have a friend/relative that is Chinese. People are less prone to stereotype, to lump all into one classification. At least when it comes to the Chinese. (And South Asians, South-East Asians -- not so much for Aboriginals).

As I said in my earlier post, this latest wave of immigration from Mainland China is something Vancouver has seen numerous times. In time, they will either find their way into Canadian society, or they will leave and go back where they came from.

[kool maudit]

i have to say, i like it when i see a canada thread go beyond five pages. all canadian problems aside, from swaggering around over population differences of 200,000 to all of the other bumptious self-satisfactions endemic to our big-but-little country, it's a pretty good group in here.

you get some acajack going, some rousseau, some signalhillhiker, some monkeyronin, and all the rest and you've generally got a pretty good convo, with tangents and outbursts and all that good stuff.

[kool maudit]

i would suggest, however, that its best to stick to the issue rather than try and tease out whether it is a mere stand-in for some diffuse and unpleasant resentment against chinese people per se.

the reson is that you can never ultimately know what people's motivations are, and any significant political faction is bound to have people who are in it for reasons of principle and people in it for less admirable reasons.

if we sort of treat all airings of sensitive issues as being just mere manifestations of some beyond-the-pale spite, we risk categorizing some of our touchiest discussions as essentially unhave-able. this does nobody any good, because it always comes out sooner or later.

the fact is, these things happen. chinese in vancouver, russian in tel aviv, the roman alphabet in belgrade, english in quebec... they're a facet of human movement. one cannot excuse oneself from every conversation just because it may or may not host a bigot or two.

[kool maudit]

i think rousseau's thinking about toronto is essentially right. from a realpolitik perspective, high-level multiculturalism works best when no single group dominates. this, of course, is what they used to call "hegemonic" behavior back in my university days (they probably still do, even though such phenomena as "microaggressions" have gained some ground) but it works. where you have two large groups, you will eventually host a contest for power. where you have a historic power in relative decline (anglo toronto) and a bunch of ascending but lesser and fragmented powers, you have (for a time) cosmopolitanism.

as much as canadians may pride themselves on their adaptability, no culture in the history of the world has ever been blasé enough to simply learn a new language and culture whenever a demographic shift occurs*. there is always some sort of contest. this is our history, bloody and unpleasant though it may often be, and we are not beyond it.

* not within a single generation, at least. this does happen, but it always follows a defeat in the aforementioned contest. english canadians in montreal represent one of the most peaceful examples of this phenomenon in history, and it still took a while: some fought, many left, and then their children either adapted or grew up closer to their culture's power-base (in this case, ontario). but there was still a contest; it may have been one of the world's most benign iterations, but pierre laporte still was killed, losing his worldly consciousness forever. so was william vincent o'neill. leslie macwilliams and alfred pinisch suffered and died as well, as did others... and that's canada.

[red-paladin]

The supposed 'anti-Chinese' attitude in Metro Van is way overstated on this thread.
It's one of the most non-racist places in the world.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

The supposed 'anti-Chinese' attitude in Metro Van is way overstated on this thread.
It's one of the most non-racist places in the world.

Yeah I know, I love how a few opportunists (the usual who only seem to have bad things to say about Vancouver) have tried to turn this thread / topic into that.

Not every thing is about "race."

In fact the term "racism / racist" has been used so much in so many inappropriate ways / situations, that the word itself has begun to lose much of its meaning.

A similar thing is happening to the word "rape" currently where anything even slightly sexual towards women is being called rape.

Watering down such powerful words actually does a non-service to the serious problems they represent.