Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Spocket]

Painting this into a "threat" argument is misleading. It precludes the idea that there are no pragmatic arguments against allowing Chinese-only signage.

Can we not expect to have a common language in our own country ? It's racist to expect immigrants to adapt to at least a few basic requirements of living in Canada ?

If they or any other immigrant wants to live in a sequestered community whereby they can live exactly as they did prior to immigration then why even immigrate in the first place ? Just for the money ? Then what do we want immigrants like that for ?

If I'm walking down the street and see nothing but cyrillic in a country where English is the lingua franca, is it really that much to ask that I not be excluded ? Well, if I'm in Canada I have a reasonable expectation of seeing English or French on all signs. I don't care if it shares space with any other language from the rest of the world but I should be able to at least know what the shop is selling.

[sonysnob]

I think that Chinese only signage should be banned as well. I was recently taken somewhat aback by a large billboard written exclusively is Arabic in North York.

I think that language policies should be in place to ensure that there is at least some degree of assimilation by new Canadians into existing Canadian culture.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by geotag277

If we were talking about any other language this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion. Something to think about.

Yes it would. Areas like Brighton Beach shouldn't exist either, although their signage is all Russian. Signage is an obvious way to navigate a city and as such everybody should understand what it says. Common sense would dictate that to do to that you would utilize the local language, which immigrants would learn in order to understand too.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Spocket

Painting this into a "threat" argument is misleading. It precludes the idea that there are no pragmatic arguments against allowing Chinese-only signage.

Can we not expect to have a common language in our own country ? It's racist to expect immigrants to adapt to at least a few basic requirements of living in Canada ?

If they or any other immigrant wants to live in a sequestered community whereby they can live exactly as they did prior to immigration then why even immigrate in the first place ? Just for the money ? Then what do we want immigrants like that for ?

If I'm walking down the street and see nothing but cyrillic in a country where English is the lingua franca, is it really that much to ask that I not be excluded ? Well, if I'm in Canada I have a reasonable expectation of seeing English or French on all signs. I don't care if it shares space with any other language from the rest of the world but I should be able to at least know what the shop is selling.

If we want to "expect" immigrants to "assimilate" into our culture, they should have the option of using either official language, either French or English. If we go down that route, expect we would enforce French language service in all commercial enterprise.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Canada's two official languages are English and French. When you immigrate to a country you should understand that participating fully in that country and taking on its values is part of the package. Having a sign only in one, non-official language, sends an exclusionary message. it's not only Caucasians who can't read it, Hispanics, Turks, Syrians, Indian etc etc are also excluded. A core tenet of multiculturalism is inclusiveness, not exclusion.

By all means have the sign in Chinese AND French or Chinese AND English.

BTW, the "spending tax dollars" argument is extremely weak. City councils are meant to debate issues of concern to the public. Publishing a new bylaw is a minimal cost and municipalities all have bylaws officers already to enforce such things.

But what do private companies have to do with it? If you move to a country, yes, you should expect that public services will only be available in the official languages. If you need the hospital, you'd better bring a translator! If you hope to understand a driver's test, fill out government applications, or apply to school, you need the language. But noodles? Seriously, who cares what language/alphabet they sell them in.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A business open to the public does not, strictu sensu, constitute a "private life" environment. There is definitely a public dimension to it.

It's a private business, no?

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Yes it would. Areas like Brighton Beach shouldn't exist either, although their signage is all Russian. Signage is an obvious way to navigate a city and as such everybody should understand what it says. Common sense would dictate that to do to that you would utilize the local language, which immigrants would learn in order to understand too.

"Shouldn't exist" because it doesn't meet the "assimilation" requirements that you have for requiring people to enter and live in Canada?

We are getting into dangerous territory here. For the record I also think the issue is way over blown and exaggerated. We are talking about a few commercial signs in Richmond. I see articles going back to 2003 (referencing projects from 1991):

http://mbc.metropolis.net/assets/uploads/files/wp/2003/WP03-12.pdf

Richmond has been a place with a large Chinese population and people have been talking about this sign issue for at least a quarter century. This whole narrative that our culture is under imminent threat due to a few signs is not new, and most of all, not interesting, realistic, or even sane.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

As far as signage in languages other than English, it seems people only get worked up about it when the languages used don't employ the Latin alphabet. There are plenty of businesses in my neighbourhood with signage in Portuguese (and only Portuguese) that no one really seems to care about.

Exactly! Which is why I find the defensive arguments like "This is Canada, not China!" alarming.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A retail place of business is actually somewhere in between the public and private spheres. I can choose to invite only black people or no black people to my house, but I can't do that with my bar or my restaurant. I don't need an accessible ramp at my house but will likely need one for my business.

It's just your opinion that such requirements that might be related to language are unacceptable. It's not a hard and fast rule written down anywhere.

What about the hundreds of thousands of kids born in Richmond who don't speak English as a first language? Should Richmond be English for ever and ever and ever no matter what? What about the 1000000+ Aboriginal people in Canada? Perhaps we should all speak indigenous languages.

Originally Posted by kool maudit

to be ideologically pure (but un-pragmatically honest) about things, the proper rejoinder would be "you are. and there is no problem with that."

feeling excluded on the basis of language (and/or culture, by extension) represents an attachment to non-essential things that is ultimately related to the sort of ethno-cultural "centrism" that creates pre-modern orders, with all of their unpleasant particularities and outgrowths.

essentially, people are moving to richmond from other countries because they are seeking opportunity (an essential thing) and because it is good for the economy (an essential thing).

it is good for the economy because most western countries have low birth rates, which are themselves the outgrowth of individual-centric sexual and reproductive practices (an essential thing).

ideally, the proper reaction would be to recognize your exclusion as an inevitable outgrowth of essential things and adapt to it by either learning the language in question or migrating to another area.

this process, as a whole, represents the evolution of your culture and region (an essential, or at least unavoidable, thing) and as such must be entered into with goodwill.

i mean, nobody actually lives like this, but that's probably because we're just not up to speed yet.

I like you.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by geotag277

If we were talking about any other language this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion. Something to think about.

You're right. If it was Portuguese and Richmond was full of Brazilians, it would be party central and nobody would give a crap about Portuguese only signs because there would be a strong social connection that would mitigate any concerns about signage. Same if it was Cubans or Russians. But there is a huge disconnect with the new Chinese community. It's a fact that many Chinese don't like social interaction with non Chinese. I've seen proof of this at certain downtown nightclubs where non Chinese are treated with outright hostility and are told they are not welcome. The afterhours club on Granville had major problem with this as there are only a few afterhours clubs for people of every background to choose from. Things like that tend to cause resentment and consequently complaints about signage.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Sure you can. If I was in charge of such a thing, I could say "Welcome to Canada, you are free to practice your own culture and religion, and if you start a business you are free to display it in any language you like, but please respect the local community and include English on any signage as well." I don't see how this could in any way be seen as offensive or oppressing.

EDIT: Seems pretty reasonable to me that immigrants would have to somewhat accommodate the existing population. You can't expect to move to a different place and impose your own culture on the rest. If that's the plan, why immigrate at all?

I'm glad you are taking a moderate stance, and I can tell you've thought a lot about it.

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

I live in Richmond and I think that this is an over-blown issue that has got profile by an outgoing City Councilor who really just said that she has had a change of heart since the last time the signage bylaw this was debated and perhaps it's time for the City to return to the issue. Sure, it's easy to be cynical to say that she only found her position on the issue when she was no longer up for re-election. It's also worth considering that this is a strategy to keep her name in the media prior to launching her candidacy for Provincial or Federal office. It may also be worth taking it on face value and accept that her opinion has changed.

As a Caucasian resident in my early 30s, who has grown up in the "mosaic" and "tapestry" era of multiculturalism, I sincerely don't have an issue with Chinese-only signage, which I need to stress is pretty rare in the grand scheme of things. It just isn't an issue for me. If I cannot read a business' sign I'm likely not going to patronize it, assuming that their products and services are even of interest. Simple as that.

I'm not very likely to use the services of a tour operator that specializes in package group tours of China for Chinese ex-pats and senior citizens. I'm not very likely to use the services of a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner or purchase traditional Chinese herbs and supplements. I'm also not very likely to purchase insurance from a brokerage that caters to the native Chinese language speakers, or learn driving from an instructor that specializes in helping new arrivals get their BC Drivers' License, or use an immigration consultant that helps me bring my family over. The list continues and I would hazard to guess that these businesses constitute nearly all of the Chinese language-only signs in Richmond.

The only issue that I see, and I put it out there that I'm looking at this an urban planner, is that retail in Richmond is relatively concentrated and when clustering of businesses that cater exclusively to native Chinese language speakers occurs, it can result in residents who live in proximity having fewer retail options in walking distance that cater to the English language speaking population. In that context, I can see how long-time residents could feel that their retail choices have been constrained if they have no use for those businesses and services, either for language reasons or the types of services they offer. It is kind of zero-sum when the areas of Richmond that do have retail are so concentrated.

This all doesn't really bother me and I just accept that when you live in a municipality that has a high proportionality of foreign-borne residents, the local retail options will cater to that population at this time in history. The kids and grand kids of these immigrants are wholly fluent in English and have grown up and are part of the culture, so these Chinese language-only businesses are primarily catering to a relatively narrow segment of the population. It's kind of a real-politik situation and not that much different than if I were to live in a very wealthy neighbourhood and find that, surprise, the local retail options cater to a certain segment of that population who have disposable income and inherited or acculturated tastes in conspicuous consumption. Were I to live there, I would likely find that I would be constrained by the day-to-day utility of that retail landscape.

Thank you for your perspective. Something I hadn't considered.


I have a feeling that many critics of foreign language signs aren't likely to patronize most of these places whether the sign says "Gong Bao Ji Ding" or "龚煲籍低嗯". I don't really see how this is philosophically any different than a word like "Pizza" or "Shawarma". Perhaps it helps to know how to pronounce it when it's written in the roman alphabet? In a few generations, every Canadian will probably know a few more Chinese words, just like how Anglo-Canadians probably learned a few new Italian and German words a hundred years ago.

Live and let live. So long as no customers are denied service based on race or language, emergency exits say "EXIT", hateful language is avoided (i.e. anti-Smitherman campaign in last TO election), and health and safety codes are followed, write your sign however you can attract customers.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by geotag277

"Shouldn't exist" because it doesn't meet the "assimilation" requirements that you have for requiring people to enter and live in Canada?

We are getting into dangerous territory here. For the record I also think the issue is way over blown and exaggerated. We are talking about a few commercial signs in Richmond. I see articles going back to 2003 (referencing projects from 1991):

http://mbc.metropolis.net/assets/uploads/files/wp/2003/WP03-12.pdf

Richmond has been a place with a large Chinese population and people have been talking about this sign issue for at least a quarter century. This whole narrative that our culture is under imminent threat due to a few signs is not new, and most of all, not interesting, realistic, or even sane.

I don't give a damn about assimilation. I may not be thrilled that so many people come here with absolutely no intention of ever embracing the country, but there's nothing we can do about it. All I can hope for is that they respect the existing population by putting some English on their signs. I like Acajack's example of the accessibility ramp, because while it's a private business, they should try and accommodate others.

Also, I should be able to voice my opinion on this without it being labeled "dangerous territory." Asking businesses to suffer a minor inconvenience so that others feel more comfortable is not racist.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by logan5

You're right. If it was Portuguese and Richmond was full of Brazilians, it would be party central and nobody would give a crap about Portuguese only signs because there would be a strong social connection that would mitigate any concerns about signage. Same if it was Cubans or Russians. But there is a huge disconnect with the new Chinese community. It's a fact that many Chinese don't like social interaction with non Chinese. I've seen proof of this at certain downtown nightclubs where non Chinese are treated with outright hostility and are told they are not welcome. The afterhours club on Granville had major problem with this as there are only a few afterhours clubs for people of every background to choose from. Things like that tend to cause resentment and consequently complaints about signage.

I don't know if it's necessarily that it's not a Latin alphabet that is the problem, maybe, but I don't know. I think people start to notice and object when the signs become too ubiquitous, and therefore somewhat exclusionary.

And to counter with a point above, I am sure there are lots of aboriginal people who wish we all spoke aboriginal languages.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

According to a Chinese speaking colleague born in Hong Kong, most of the Chinese-only signs she has seen in North America were advertising goods and "services" that might be frowned upon by the public at large.

Although she phrased it a little more crudely than I did.

[ozonemania]

This same argument has happened many times over in Vancouver. In the 1960s with the first wave of Hong Kong immigration, in the 1980s with the following wave of HK immigration, same with the 90s with Taiwan immigration, and now with the mainland Chinese immigration.

Every single time in the past, there have been complaints about how these new immigrants didn't put out signs in English, or they weren't adopting or respecting Canadian culture.

And every single one of these waves have found ways, over time, to become as Canadian as you and me.

Cultural adaptation takes time and exposure. Just think if you were to move to some city in the middle of China. You would probably seek out other Canadians and find comfort in the safety network of being in a strange land. You might even try and create a little piece of Canada in your neighbourhood. You might not speak any Chinese, but 5, 10 years down the road, you would probably be much more comfortable with the language, culture and customs, enough to venture out and fully participate in Chinese society.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Doug

Better take two!

[waterloowarrior]

Russell Township passed a bilingual sign by-law that went to the Court of Appeal in Ontario and the Township won. The Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal of the decision. Here are decisions
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2010/2010onsc4566/2010onsc4566.html original decision
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/2012/2012onca409/2012onca409.html appeal decision

[Doug]

If you don't like the sign or can't read it, don't go into the store. These debates are laughable.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by esquire

Better take two!

Speak for yourself

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

It's different when there's already a well-established minority presence.

I moved to Winnipeg. I met and associated with Manitobans. Almost everyone I knew there, everyone I dated there, everyone I dealt with on a day-to-day basis there, was a mainlander. I was surprised and excited every time I met a fellow Newfoundlander or heard word of some Newfoundland-related event.

A few of my cousins moved to Alberta (Calgary and Grande Prairie). They only ever met and associated with Newfoundlanders. They lived in neighbourhoods where they dominated, shopped at groceries with Newfoundland Foods aisles, dated other Newfoundlanders.

The only difference is the size of the community in each place. And either way, it has benefits and disadvantages. They were certainly much happier than I was, but their lives were also a lot more transient. "As soon as you make a friend, they're gone back home."

A Chinese person coming to Vancouver is likely to have an experience more like my cousins than mine.

Hey, I'm from GP!