Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[DoubleK]

They are moving some of the powerlines into the new corridor for the SWRR.

They are going into the final location per the ultimate plans.

If I understand what you are saying is you are suggesting that they narrow the right of way for the ultimate design and repurpose the median to host the utilities.

Is that right?

[fusili]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

This is the Ultimate mainline cross-section as proposed:

What the hell is this? 16 damn lanes. In what crazy universe would this amount of lanes be necessary for a city of any size less than 8 million or so. This diagram illustrates how out to lunch Alberta Transportation is.

They aren't going to try to acquire more land for a second ring road, this was the only shot they had. Therefore, this SW leg has to have provisions to carry the volume of the second road when the time comes for its construction. It might be 75 years from now. Either way, I don't know why everyone is freaking out about the ultimate plan. Not like they're building 16 lanes from day one, if ever. Let's think about some facts here and look at this logically:

- Planners are in the very early stages of determining a route for a second Calgary ring road.
- Acquiring more land thru Tsuu T'ina for the SW leg of a second ring road would be pretty much impossible
- Thus, the logical thing to do would be to acquire enough land on the SW leg of ring road #1 so that it can, in effect, carry the SW leg of ring road #2 as well

AB Trans has followed a perfectly rational sequence of events here, so explain to me how they're "out to lunch"?

Or people would prefer SW Stoney to be another Crowchild or Deerfoot that's going to cost a billion and a half to fix, each?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by fusili

What the hell is this? 16 damn lanes. In what crazy universe would this amount of lanes be necessary for a city of any size less than 8 million or so. This diagram illustrates how out to lunch Alberta Transportation is.

That's not for 16 lanes. Its for runways when we all have flying cars. That's how far ahead Alberta Transport is on all of this.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Acey

They aren't going to try to acquire more land for a second ring road, this was the only shot they had. Therefore, this SW leg has to have provisions to carry the volume of the second road when the time comes for its construction. It might be 75 years from now. Either way, I don't know why everyone is freaking out about the ultimate plan. Not like they're building 16 lanes from day one, if ever. Let's think about some facts here and look at this logically:

- Planners are in the very early stages of determining a route for a second Calgary ring road.
- Acquiring more land thru Tsuu T'ina for the SW leg of a second ring road would be pretty much impossible
- Thus, the logical thing to do would be to acquire enough land on the SW leg of ring road #1 so that it can, in effect, carry the SW leg of ring road #2 as well

AB Trans has followed a perfectly rational sequence of events here, so explain to me how they're "out to lunch"?

Or people would prefer SW Stoney to be another Crowchild or Deerfoot that's going to cost a billion and a half to fix, each?

Any guesses on this?

5seconds would be far better qualified to answer that, but I'll post this from a recent CTV article:

[...] some members of the Capital Region Board say it’s time to think ahead, and get work started on another, outer ring road.

The proposed roadway would circle Edmonton, and fall about 8 kilometres beyond the Henday.

Henday and Stoney are basically neck and neck at this point, and any potential outer Calgary ring would run into huge snags for the aforementioned reasons, so I'm almost convinced some people are at least talking about it.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

They are moving some of the powerlines into the new corridor for the SWRR.

They are going into the final location per the ultimate plans.

If I understand what you are saying is you are suggesting that they narrow the right of way for the ultimate design and repurpose the median to host the utilities.

Is that right?

I would prefer that the highway is as narrow as possible, to maximize land use, minimize destruction to the environment, and reduce cost. Furthermore, I think we should make it our goal as a city to never ever ever ever need 16 traffic lanes there. 8 should more than suffice (6 plus room for LRT should be more than enough), and if we need more, we've failed as a modern city.

As this leg of the LRT is about 30 km long, a 300 m ROW consumes 9 000 000 m2 or 2224 acres, much of which contains pristine ecosystems rare in other parts of Calgary. Reducing the width by even 1.5 m can save an acre.

More than just environmental concerns, this highway will consume developable land valued in the hundreds of millions, particularly between highway 8 and OBCR. A 300 m ROW obliterates pedestrian transportation across the highway, whereas a 60 m ROW (the minimum required for a pipeline - enough to fit 6 traffic lanes and an LRT, like Bow or Crow) would enable future residents (in Evergreen and Springbank) to cross on foot.

The wider the ROW, the longer interchange spans must be, the further future residents will have to commute, and the more expensive this project will be.

Every meter of ROW counts, and we should use as little as we can. Constructing 109 m medians so that we are prepared in case we one day need 16 lanes is ridiculous and wasteful - even if it is standard practice elsewhere in AB. I'm not saying we need to achieve a 60 m right of way (although I believe we can, and in fact that cost savings and land use benefits would outweigh vertical integration of utilities), but surely there is a way to use less than 300 m and $5B. One such alternative might be to put utilities in space wasted by medians.

[RyLucky]

While I'm ranting..

I think there is another problem here: there is no incentive for the province to design this project with smart land use principles. AB's mandate is to build a safe and efficient travel mode based on the perceived wishes of its voters, but it does not seem to be concerned with those issues deemed to be beyond the scope of this highway project, such as municipal concerns, bicycles, pedestrians, transit, land use policy, the socioeconomic impact of a 300 m barrier, or the environment. The design parameters are better than the ones we used for Deerfoot in the '70s - we can go faster, safer; provide easier, safer exits for drivers - but the principles around design have failed to evolve.

In fact, to add a snide comment that I only half-believe (but DO half-believe), it's as though this province would prefer we consume as much gasoline as possible.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

This is the Ultimate mainline cross-section as proposed:

Originally Posted by DoubleK

They are moving some of the powerlines into the new corridor for the SWRR.

They are going into the final location per the ultimate plans.

If I understand what you are saying is you are suggesting that they narrow the right of way for the ultimate design and repurpose the median to host the utilities.

Is that right?

Build lanes sets 1 and 2 (counting left to right) not 1 and 4 as they are currently planning, this small change will reduce the currently used ROW by 81m. Additionally if a few small items are planned for the expansion later (if ever) now you would shorten every bridge by 81m.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The land except through the reserve was bought in the 80s, after a court case decided it was legal to expropriate and hold for future developments and lease back (or impose purchase options). There will be pipelines, utility stations, and power lines on the corridor, so they can avoid being very close to developed areas. On the east side of the city you've already seen new pipelines in the corridor instead of upgrading old pipes further in to distribute gas. Some of the oil and gas pipelines will be abandoned, some will become parts of the local distribution network.

The whole point was planning in advance, reserving land for future unforeseen uses. Perhaps in 50 years we will have a second orbital LRT on the ring road corridor.

I think we'll be lucky to to have one orbital LRT let alone be looking at a second in 50 years.

[RyLucky]

^^^I may have said this before, but I have to say, politics aside, you've done a fantastic job chronicling the history of this project. Bravo!

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Thank you!

Regardless of where the project is today, it's got such an interesting history with so many different aspects, touching on so many issues (First Nations relations, land rights, mobility and transportation, government spending, military history, land use and city planning, the environment and recreation, civic participation and activism, and so much more). Given the often-times divisive nature of the project and the complexity of the story, I think there are real benefits in understanding what is going on now, and what has led us to this point.

That's exactly what I value about your perspective: a balanced, objective view that respects the complexity of the issue.

[RyLucky]

[del]

[lineman]

Originally Posted by Acey

They aren't going to try to acquire more land for a second ring road, this was the only shot they had. Therefore, this SW leg has to have provisions to carry the volume of the second road when the time comes for its construction. It might be 75 years from now. Either way, I don't know why everyone is freaking out about the ultimate plan. Not like they're building 16 lanes from day one, if ever. Let's think about some facts here and look at this logically:

- Planners are in the very early stages of determining a route for a second Calgary ring road.
- Acquiring more land thru Tsuu T'ina for the SW leg of a second ring road would be pretty much impossible
- Thus, the logical thing to do would be to acquire enough land on the SW leg of ring road #1 so that it can, in effect, carry the SW leg of ring road #2 as well

AB Trans has followed a perfectly rational sequence of events here, so explain to me how they're "out to lunch"?

Or people would prefer SW Stoney to be another Crowchild or Deerfoot that's going to cost a billion and a half to fix, each?

This makes sense. Deerfoot was adequate in the seventies when it was designed for a future city of half million, in which I wish whoever made a median large enough for express lanes. It would make my Friday escapes to Fernie much more enjoyable.

Mind you, the lack of express lanes is only one of many problems with Deerfoot.

[mwalker_mw]

Food for thought....

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgar...expansion+urban+farm/10168924/story.html

Perhaps we can find complimentary uses for the 'future use' parts of the corridor that will, at least, reduce the perceived (and actual) waste.

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by mwalker_mw

Food for thought....

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgar...expansion+urban+farm/10168924/story.html

Perhaps we can find complimentary uses for the 'future use' parts of the corridor that will, at least, reduce the perceived (and actual) waste.

Off leash area comes to mind - just have to chain link fence the area off.

[craner]

^I would love to attend 5Secs . . . but alas . . . work, family, etc. precludes me.
Good luck tomorrow, please keep us informed of future presentations.

[Cruzer]

When was the SW Ring Road supposed to go before the Federal Government for approval? Was it supposed to be this month or next year?

[fusili]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

I have been thinking about the name of the road, since it won't be called Stoney Trail in the reserve.

I wonder if we will see Klein Trail. It sounds weird, but we have a Crowchild Trail, a city named after a Tsuu T'ina leader who was noted for efforts to bridge the gap between the City and the Nation. Ralph Klein (a City leader that did the same, but effectively in reverse) is really well regarded by the Nation, and was instrumental in getting the road pushed forward for many years.

In 1982-84 he helped arrange for the City, Province and the Nation to enter into a joint study which resulted in the Nation voting to enter negotiations for the first time. He did this in part by recognising the needs of the Nation and being willing to ensure that the road benefited them as much as it did the City.

He was also key in getting the 2004 Agreement in Principle signed. When the City and the Nation couldn't come to terms in negotiations that were meant to take place from 2000-2003, the Nation approached the Province directly. Klein, now Premier, helped get negotiations moving forward, albeit without the City, and that ended with the agreement we have today.

Just a thought, as it would make an interesting parallel to Crowchild Trail. My other thought was Bull Head Trail, but there is already a Bull Head Road.

I can see why it wouldn't be called Stoney Trail in the Tsuu T'ina.

Total tangent here, but the three large nations around Calgary: Stoney, Tsuu T'ina and Siksika, are three entirely different language groups. Siksika speak a Blackfoot dialect, the Stoney are related to the Sioux and Assiniboine nations (who I believe migrated north from the US) and speak a Sioux dialect, and the Tsuu T'ina are actually Dene speakers, who share a common language with nations in the Yukon, NWT and Alaska. The point being, calling Stoney Trail in Tsuu T'ina lands would be like calling a road in France "German Trail" or something.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by fusili

I can see why it wouldn't be called Stoney Trail in the Tsuu T'ina.

Total tangent here, but the three large nations around Calgary: Stoney, Tsuu T'ina and Siksika, are three entirely different language groups. Siksika speak a Blackfoot dialect, the Stoney are related to the Sioux and Assiniboine nations (who I believe migrated north from the US) and speak a Sioux dialect, and the Tsuu T'ina are actually Dene speakers, who share a common language with nations in the Yukon, NWT and Alaska. The point being, calling Stoney Trail in Tsuu T'ina lands would be like calling a road in France "German Trail" or something.

Or a road in Calgary being called Edmonton Trail, and vice versa (just poking fun this morning....)