Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[andasen]

Originally Posted by djh

The only problem I have with doing things "at least" to point X with expectations of continuing to point Y at a later date...those plans for point Y usually get dropped. Then you're left with a half-finished system that everybody tolerates because they say "well at least we got it to point X..."

If you ask for the least you'll end up with the least.

The thing is the system is only half finished without the Millennium Line extending out to Cambie. Getting that far serves the entire region by improving the networks connectivity thus shortening/enabling a significant number of trips.

Broadway out to Arbutus is evaluated just in terms of improving movement in the corridor. The connection improves movement in the entire region.

That said the Arbutus segment does deserve improved mass transit on its own merits. But saying that just Cambie is half assing it intrinsically incorrect.

[officedweller]

Interesting comments by Michael Geller:

Tuesday, September 23, 2014
Mayors’ Council may expect Vancouver to fund Broadway Line: Vancouver Courier September 24, 2014

...a presentation from Metro Chair Greg Moore to a group of planners and real estate professionals.

...

His presentation included highlights of the Mayors’ Council transportation plan released this past June.

...

What most of the audience did not know is that while the Mayors’ Council endorsed a tunnelled line along Broadway, it is contingent upon a partnership agreement with the City of Vancouver, which would be responsible for the incremental cost associated with tunneling “beyond that which was technically or functionally required.”

Stated another way, if an underground line is preferred for aesthetic reasons, something most of us would endorse, the City of Vancouver will be responsible for the additional cost, currently estimated at $500 million.

The mayors, especially those from Burnaby, Richmond and New Westminster, adopted this position since they had to live with elevated lines in their municipalities and questioned why Vancouver should get special treatment.

While City of Vancouver planners are hopeful undergrounding the entire line to Arbutus and beyond can be justified on technical grounds, I am advised only that portion from VCC-Clark to Main Street could be so rationalized. From Main westward, the justification is aesthetic, meaning Vancouver will have to come up with the extra bucks, presumably from other levels of government and the private sector.

...

http://www.gellersworldtravel.blogspot.ca/2014/09/mayors-council-may-expect-vancouver-to.html

[GlassCity]

They might be able to claim there isn't enough space on Broadway for an elevated line, but honestly I think it's fair. It's hard to argue with the fact that all the other municipalities have ugly elevated lines, while Vancouver wants to hide theirs and have everybody foot the bill for it.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

They might be able to claim there isn't enough space on Broadway for an elevated line, but honestly I think it's fair. It's hard to argue with the fact that all the other municipalities have ugly elevated lines, while Vancouver wants to hide theirs and have everybody foot the bill for it.

I'm fine with that. I found it silly to bury the entire thing, but if it gets built without disrupting businesses, there's less to complain.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It's hard to argue with the fact that all the other municipalities have ugly elevated lines, while Vancouver wants to hide theirs and have everybody foot the bill for it.

I like those elevated lines. I don't think they're ugly at all compared to other elevated transportation structures (I'm thinking of the viaducts and Toronto's Gardiner Expressway) and I far prefer riding the Skytrain through elevated sections than through a tunnel. I always thought burying the Cambie line south of 25th was a mistake. Our city is situated in one of the most beautiful settings in the world and the first thing we do to people arriving at the airport is stuff them into a noisy tunnel. It's stupid, IMHO.

[Caliplanner]

aberdeen5698 upscaled neighborhoods and their wealthy home owners don't necessarily like elevated train lines running next to/over their properties!

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I like those elevated lines. I don't think they're ugly at all compared to other elevated transportation structures (I'm thinking of the viaducts and Toronto's Gardiner Expressway) and I far prefer riding the Skytrain through elevated sections than through a tunnel. I always thought burying the Cambie line south of 25th was a mistake. Our city is situated in one of the most beautiful settings in the world and the first thing we do to people arriving at the airport is stuff them into a noisy tunnel. It's stupid, IMHO.

In some contexts it's not too bad, but I can't imagine Cambie Street having a big guideway going down the median for half its length. It is nice to look outside, but often it's too packed to see anything anyway and we spend a lot less time riding it then people living there do looking at it. I know a lot of people like the look of the elevated lines, but I think the majority doesn't.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

In some contexts it's not too bad, but I can't imagine Cambie Street having a big guideway going down the median for half its length.

Well then you've got to ask why some parts of the city are worth the expense of tunneling and other parts (i.e., the original Expo line) aren't.

IMHO if the residents of Cambie insisted on a buried line then the incremental cost should have been recovered through their property taxes. With that big median there was absolutely no technical reason why it couldn't have been elevated.

If there are technical reasons why Broadway needs to be buried, then that's fine. But if we're burying it just to appease property owners then let them bear the expense.

Gosh, did I really say that?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Well then you've got to ask why some parts of the city are worth the expense of tunneling and other parts (i.e., the original Expo line) aren't.

IMHO if the residents of Cambie insisted on a buried line then the incremental cost should have been recovered through their property taxes. With that big median there was absolutely no technical reason why it couldn't have been elevated.

If there are technical reasons why Broadway needs to be buried, then that's fine. But if we're burying it just to appease property owners then let them bear the expense.

Gosh, did I really say that?

I agree with you, it's not fair that the rich part gets an underground line while the less rich side gets an elevated line. I think where we disagree is that I think instead of them both having elevated lines I think East Van lines should be underground along with the West Side's

[queetz@home]

Wow! The Broadway Line keeps on getting better and better. First the fact that it will end at Arbutus, now the City of Vancouver has to pay extra if they want to make it *pretty*, aka tunnel when not necessary. I think there is a lot of hope for Metro Vancouver solving its transporation woes fairly after all...

[spm2013]

I guess the city could always build overpasses across various Broadway intersections to make it unfeasible for an elevated Skytrain

[trofirhen]

I thought it was largely decided that the Broadway line would be underground, going under 12th avenue.
Putting income bias aside for a moment, I think that on an aesthetic basis, an elevated line along Broadway would be freaking ugly. Case closed.

[Jimbo604]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Wow! The Broadway Line keeps on getting better and better. First the fact that it will end at Arbutus, now the City of Vancouver has to pay extra if they want to make it *pretty*, aka tunnel when not necessary. I think there is a lot of hope for Metro Vancouver solving its transporation woes fairly after all...

The question is should Vancouver pay to underground the line on Broadway where there clearly is much less room than the routes in Bby/Richmond/Surrey.

However, a much more interesting question, I think, is why did Cambie line get undergrounded between 25th and Marine when there was plenty of room to run it overhead down the centre of the Cambie? This is a much more apples to apples comparison than comparisons to the Broadway line if someone is going to suggest there is a double standard between the burbs and the COV.

[Millennium2002]

It's the trees. Which sounds funny until you hear that some people actually angrily protested the fact they cut a bunch of them down near Marine Drive Station... In any case, I actually like the tunneled result... it looks way cleaner.

Also, the region is shooting itself in the foot in so many ways with this policy...
1. They've now given the west side a reason to hate SkyTrain and prefer LRT, when we all know LRT is basically a souped-up BRT that will cost the same as RRT and yet do horribly in such a built-up and dense area...
2. Don't expect the west side or Vancouver in general to support anything other than basic bus service for Surrey or any other place that needs more if they can't get what they want. e.g. the classic tit-for-tat response.

I hope the region has the foresight to back off from this aggressive policy... because if not, the whole place is going to sink in no time.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

i have to say im glad it was tunneled down Cambie. i love the tree filled boulevard myself and most of those mature trees would have needed to be trimmed, cut and/or replaced with younger, crappy trees.

realistically i think the Broadway line needs to be tunneled at least until Arbutusish. there isn't a lot of surface space to work with. a lot of buildings are close to the streets, even the sidewalk space isn't spectacular. taking away road space down Broadway isn't an option either. even with Skytrain down that street i still think it would be a busy mess. not everyone wants to take transit. it would also be nice to have the city hall Canada Line and Broadway Line stations physically connected through tunnels underground. a stacked idea. N/S on top of E/W or vise versa.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i have to say im glad it was tunneled down Cambie. i love the tree filled boulevard myself and most of those mature trees would have needed to be trimmed, cut and/or replaced with younger, crappy trees.

realistically i think the Broadway line needs to be tunneled at least until Arbutusish. there isn't a lot of surface space to work with. a lot of buildings are close to the streets, even the sidewalk space isn't spectacular. taking away road space down Broadway isn't an option either. even with Skytrain down that street i still think it would be a busy mess. not everyone wants to take transit. it would also be nice to have the city hall Canada Line and Broadway Line stations physically connected through tunnels underground. a stacked idea. N/S on top of E/W or vise versa.

How many people remember that some of the Cambie 'heritage boulevard' trees had to be 'temporarily relocated' during the Cambie subway construction, and when it came to re-plant them quite a few were either dead or missing. New 'heritage trees' were planted in their place - but not the same species.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i have to say im glad it was tunneled down Cambie. i love the tree filled boulevard myself and most of those mature trees would have needed to be trimmed, cut and/or replaced with younger, crappy trees.

realistically i think the Broadway line needs to be tunneled at least until Arbutusish. there isn't a lot of surface space to work with. a lot of buildings are close to the streets, even the sidewalk space isn't spectacular. taking away road space down Broadway isn't an option either. even with Skytrain down that street i still think it would be a busy mess. not everyone wants to take transit. it would also be nice to have the city hall Canada Line and Broadway Line stations physically connected through tunnels underground. a stacked idea. N/S on top of E/W or vise versa.

Very much agree, esp about the connecting station at City Hall, though I think that's a "given." I'd accept your version,
except I'd keep it tunnelled all the way.
In a new area, such as around the Evergreen Line, with the forest, railway, and apartment complexes, it looks fine.
Having an elevated concrete guideway in a mature area like Point Grey and along West Broadway, past Jericho beach, up Alma, etc etc, would, IMO
look hideous, though many disagree. I guess it all boils down to the cost factor. *** And no I'm not from the West Side, and I confer no priviledge on rich Nimbys. .... It's just the way it would impact visually that I'm talking about, though I realize tunnelling means more $$$.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Well then you've got to ask why some parts of the city are worth the expense of tunneling and other parts (i.e., the original Expo line) aren't.

The original Expo Line goes over an existing rail ROW.

[MIPS]

It might be nice to elevate the guideway down Broadway but the logistics to do so outweigh how practical it would be now (you tunnel down from VCC/Clark, go back up a hill, then go up another incline in an otherwise flat area onto an elevated guideway). I'll take a moment to refer to an old draft of Broadway Station when they proposed running right down Commercial Drive.


Original Artist unknown

Broadway would lose at least two meters to a center median. That's a lot of space for an already crowded route. As much as it's a SkyTrain it has to operate underground until at least McDonald.

[Hot Rod]

Does Burnaby even have a right to demand one city pay for transit over another? doesn't Burnaby already have the most rapid transit of any city in the lower mainland? Seems to me like they would be on Vancouver's side since it would make their connections legitimate.

Also, suburbs seem to forget that transit users change modes to reach much of Vancouver outside of downtown. And too bad so sad, but Vancouver is the main city with the most jobs/entertainment and largest and densest population and built form. If anything, all transit lines for Vancouver should have been built first and long ago, then we could SHAPE build form in the suburbs by designing transit to encourage development. Vancouver has to build transit to FIT existing already dense development (which is only getting more dense every day). ....