New Downtown Calgary Arena

[Innersoul1]

Are there any shadowing issues with the WV location? BC Place and the GM centre might be good to superimpose over the WV map for size comparison (if possible).

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I actually asked this a few posts ago - http://wpmedia.blogs.calgaryherald.com/2010/04/west_village_arp.pdf . Unfortunately completely incompatible.

I agree - I don't want something so massive and single purpose in such a prime location. It wouldn't be so bad if the site was wider, but a stadium will dominate the area and create a wall on the western edge of downtown.

Surely any sort of arena will have a ton of parking lots - anathema to the majority of posters here?

Doesn't Crowchild already create a wall? If the stadiums replace all the crap that is there, it's probably better. Even with a realignment of Bow Trail, Its surrounded by the C-train line, Crowchild, 14th st...There are a lot of barriers already. The only thing going for the whole west area is the river.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I agree - I don't want something so massive and single purpose in such a prime location. It wouldn't be so bad if the site was wider, but a stadium will dominate the area and create a wall on the western edge of downtown.

Surely any sort of arena will have a ton of parking lots - anathema to the majority of posters here?

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Doesn't Crowchild already create a wall? If the stadiums replace all the crap that is there, it's probably better. Even with a realignment of Bow Trail, Its surrounded by the C-train line, Crowchild, 14th st...There are a lot of barriers already. The only thing going for the whole west area is the river.

Originally Posted by Trans Canada

Any idea how much leeway will there be to realign roads etc? Ideally the entire network of roads, particularly the ramps on/off 14th, would be redesigned - certainly it can be done better than how it is now (though the time in limbo between old and new would be a major traffic nightmare).

Also, I have the impression that stadia/arenas generally kill vibrancy of a neighbourhood rather than enhance it. A big single-use structure that is only used a couple times per week. Two in the same neighbourhood would pose a big challenge to developing WV into a vibrant mixed-use (mainly residential) neighbourhood. I think these would be better placed beside a vibrant neighbourhood (say Railtown next to EV) rather than right in the middle.

To the bolded parts: totally. We should absolutely not build a stadium unless it incorporates a wide variety of uses. Ideally, it should be something with a huge residential and retail component and limited surface parking. If we build in WV, it would be a massive waste if we don't reconfigure the roads, clean up the creosote, fix 14th st, create residential and commercial TOD, and free-up the waterfront. I think we should even think about a new Bow River bridge at 19th st and a new CPR underpass somewhere. There are 111 acres of prime real estate just waiting for a chance to develop. If we simply plop a stadium on the Greyhound terminal, the area is going to be just as bad as it is now for another 30 years.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Trans Canada

Also, I have the impression that stadia/arenas generally kill vibrancy of a neighbourhood rather than enhance it. A big single-use structure that is only used a couple times per week. Two in the same neighbourhood would pose a big challenge to developing WV into a vibrant mixed-use (mainly residential) neighbourhood. I think these would be better placed beside a vibrant neighbourhood (say Railtown next to EV) rather than right in the middle.

While I do think stadia can be integrated into vibrant areas, I'm not sure if it could be done with an arena and a stadium. That's more of a stadium district than entertainment district.

[McMurph]

Originally Posted by Riise

While I do think stadia can be integrated into vibrant areas, I'm not sure if it could be done with an arena and a stadium. That's more of a stadium district than entertainment district.

I completely agree. An arena can be slotted into a vibrant neighbourhood. A stadium much less so. The West Village may not have much going for it now, but it has huge potential. I can think of no stadium in the world that would optimize that site. Improve it, sure. But the area redevelopment plan was aiming for a whole lot more. I'm open to the idea of a multi use facility, but I'm skeptical.

Shadowing of the river would be a big problem. Although a N-S configuration might help, the height of the thing would still be a problem. Nothing there could be built much below grade... unless the Stamps want to offer their new stadium as a storm water retention pond.

I'd love to see a few more mocked-up maps of assorted stadia in various configurations in both the WV and Railtown. That would help pass the time while we wait for King to make a real announcement.

[hulkrogan]

Originally Posted by CorporateWhore

Have you ever walked from your house to the Dome? Curious how long it takes. I'm thinking it wouldn't be a terribly long walk, but probably a lot less enjoyable in the winter (especially over the river).

One of the good things about it being in the West End, is that it would be relatively easy to get there from the Bridgeland station.

I've done it a few times, and it depends if you want the pre-4st E underpass answer when we split up because 2 of us decided over the CP tracks and their accompanying barb wire fences was the most direct route, or post-4st E underpass.

It's about 30 minutes now.

I never thought of the train option if it's on the west side. I have such a good free parking spot going now it'd be tough to adjust for $6 in train fare every time, but I guess I could do it :p

[googspecial]

There is a small spur off the westbound tracks before going up on the viaduct. Maybe they could extend this bit over (or under) 14 St to behind where the Greyhound station is now. One track back and forth to city hall as a game day shuttle?

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Would not buy you any extra capacity, unless it turns around at Kerby.

[googspecial]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

^ Would not buy you any extra capacity, unless it turns around at Kerby.

Was thinking to facilitate transfers to NW-S line. So maybe 8 ST?


[EDIT] Afterthought: it would be a nightmare to have trains changing direction on 7 ave

[MasterG]

If they imagine a world where 14th Street is not such a barrier, I think there is a lot they could do with a redesign of that terrible section near the bus terminal.

It's too bad the site is even more constrained to the South with the CPR lines. What would be really nice is a Beltline access route across the tracks but South to 12th Ave and east towards Vic Park Station. A Street-car / well implemented bus system perhaps. Connects the proposed entertainment district the the existing one where everyone will still be before and after the game along 17th Ave and in the Beltline. Eventually make it cross the river and head north towards North Hill to act as a medium capacity by-pass perhaps?

[YYCguys]

King keeps dangling that stick in front of the public every once in a while and it's bloody annoying! I wish he would get it all his ducks in a row and make a formal announcement already! At this rate, I'll be dead before the thing is announced and built!

[Ice Cream Man]

Bow Trail will be realigned away from the river, tight against the tracks. If I were a betting man, I'd say a new pedestrian bridge over the river gets built as well.

[tomthumb2]

Man I wish there was some way to get rid of those ugly ass tracks once and for all! They really are a pain and they divide the core from the beltline. Time to re-route and get into the 21st century Calgary! Oh and while you're at it - blow up the Bow Trail/Crowchild so called interchange and start again. Whoever designed that disaster should be publicly flogged. Anyone who's ever had to merge left onto Crowchild, then instantly merged right to make the Memorial turnoff knows what I mean.

And if anyone can break into Ken King's office, it would be nice if they could post those blueprints he's been hiding since 2007.

[flipstah]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Man I wish there was some way to get rid of those ugly ass tracks once and for all! They really are a pain and they divide the core from the beltline. Time to re-route and get into the 21st century Calgary! Oh and while you're at it - blow up the Bow Trail/Crowchild so called interchange and start again. Whoever designed that disaster should be publicly flogged. Anyone who's ever had to merge left onto Crowchild, then instantly merged right to make the Memorial turnoff knows what I mean.

And if anyone can break into Ken King's office, it would be nice if they could post those blueprints he's been hiding since 2007.

The train line was there first and it shouldn't go anywhere.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Man I wish there was some way to get rid of those ugly ass tracks once and for all! They really are a pain and they divide the core from the beltline. Time to re-route and get into the 21st century Calgary! Oh and while you're at it - blow up the Bow Trail/Crowchild so called interchange and start again. Whoever designed that disaster should be publicly flogged. Anyone who's ever had to merge left onto Crowchild, then instantly merged right to make the Memorial turnoff knows what I mean.

And if anyone can break into Ken King's office, it would be nice if they could post those blueprints he's been hiding since 2007.

So put on your thinking cap and tell us where you think the CPR tracks should be relocated to because most people realize it's not even remotely feasible.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by speedog

So put on your thinking cap and tell us where you think the CPR tracks should be relocated to because most people realize it's not even remotely feasible.

Unfortunately you're right. It seems like I've also pissed off a train enthusiast.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Unfortunately you're right. It seems like I've also pissed off a train enthusiast.

Not a train enthusiast in any way - just am very realistic that there is no economical alternate routes around Calgary to which one could relocate the CPR main line that runs through Calgary. Going north or south of the city will just run the CPR into too many expensive land ownership issues - even in Lethbridge (where they relocated the main rail yards to the west of that city), they still have a main line running though the center of that city.

In fact, I can't think of one instance in western Canada where a main line has been rerouted around a town of any size - there isn't any real financial incentive to do so and history has resulted in infrastructure being built around these mainlines. Yeah, the CNR in Calgary has created a new yard to the northeast of Calgary but they still have their large yard in Calgary and the tracks servicing that yard will not disappear in the time you or me have left on this big ball of dirt.

[McMurph]

I quite like the tracks and appreciate the clear distinction between the Beltline and Downtown which wouldn't have happened without them. The problem isn't that we have a railway per se, it's that we have constitutionally entitled railway that uses the downtown as a rail yard and has little interest in being a partner with the community. If the trains always moved, the controlled access land had a smaller footprint and there were more crossings (pedestrian, bike, level and grade separated) then the railway could become a cool part of our inner city. Jack London Square in Oakland (not a place to emulate generally) has a mainline freight and passenger line running right down the middle of a street like it were the Queen Street streetcar.

There is a good chance that the new arena (+/- stadium) will abut the tracks, either on the east or west side of downtown. It would be a great opportunity to rethink not the location of the CPR but rather the nature of its relationship with the city. I'm just not sure there is any incentive for them to do anything differently.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

^ Would not buy you any extra capacity, unless it turns around at Kerby.

Ideally the ingress and egress times for a stadium wouldn't coincide with peaks.

There is a transit agency in the US that wants to build storage tracks near a station serving a stadium to stage a bunch of trains so they can just have one empty train after another ready to go when a large event lets out at say 11PM when they would otherwise be running every thirty minutes or so.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by speedog

In fact, I can't think of one instance in western Canada where a main line has been rerouted around a town of any size.

Edmonton got rid of the CN track through downtown, although it had been effectively abandoned for decades at that point other than the occasional VIA Outhouse on Rails passing through.