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  #9621  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2014, 8:46 PM
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Austinlee Austinlee is offline
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Originally Posted by themaguffin View Post
Yeah long on details in terms of numbers and percentages, but not obviously no details on design etc.

Also, the emphasis on subsidized housing is frustrating. I know that Crawford Square was successful and there is good in dedicating some % of units to make them affordable, but I don't expect such units to be moderately priced.

Again, nice concept, but the actual emphasis should be making the most out of the land.

1.) The renderings will slowly take shape as construction grows nearer

2.) We all know how long this deal has been in the works. I think it's refreshing that solid progress is being made. This was a compromise of historic proportions. Nothing less was going to get the project off the ground.
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  #9622  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2014, 9:19 PM
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The TIF is fine, but I am disappointed there appears to have been little or no upscaling of the plan.
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  #9623  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2014, 11:53 PM
pghaedesign pghaedesign is offline
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
The TIF is fine, but I am disappointed there appears to have been little or no upscaling of the plan.
That was the first thing I noticed as well. In a location so close to Grant street, the best use they can come up with is town houses, 4-6 story apartments and one 15 story office tower? That seems weak to me when we take in the growth elsewhere in the city.

I remembered I had an account here so I figured I'd chime in.
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  #9624  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 12:11 AM
Minivan Werner Minivan Werner is offline
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I'm hoping that the 600k of office space means a couple 20 story towers.
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  #9625  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 2:03 AM
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I'm hoping that the 600k of office space means a couple 20 story towers.
Don't we all. Realistically, I'm thinking 3-4 stories average with a few mid rises poking up.
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  #9626  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 3:51 AM
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The good news is they have ten years to develop it (not so good news, they now have one more year). I'm hoping as those years pass, it will become impossible to deny the market could absorb a lot more.

Then again, that hasn't worked on the North Shore.
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  #9627  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 3:56 AM
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4-6 stories is actually the sweet spot for density IF done correctly.

Exhibit A one of the most dense residential city in the world, Paris:

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  #9628  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 11:37 AM
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The problem is to get Paris-like levels of density city-wide, you need to maintain that level of density with consistency. That's not possible in a city like Pittsburgh which is already less dense in many neighborhoods (including other parts of the Hill, Uptown, and Oakland), unless you plan to bulldoze those neighborhoods and start over.

So I'd like to see more DC-like density in the Lower Hill, or infill in Uptown and Oakland, which would balance out the other less-dense parts. Sky Vue hits that mark, and I really don't see why we shouldn't be targeting that sort of development in the Lower Hill, plus maybe a couple 20-story office buildings.
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  #9629  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 12:07 PM
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More on the Drury project:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/ne...plans-to-open-new-hotel-in-downtown.html

The room count is up a bit (maybe those interior rooms?), which is nice. Apparently they are going for historic registration and tax credits, which is great--but that should also put pressure on them to get things like the signage as historically correct as possible.
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  #9630  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 2:54 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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My thoughts:

The initial renderings of the site kinda blow.



Housing looks too sparse (townhouses, really?), which makes me think the planned massing is barely upscaled from Crawford Square. The one good thing I suppose is I don't see a lot of room for parking for the apartments.

I also don't like the orientation of retail towards Bedford and Centre. IMHO it should all be on Wylie, because those streets will have "dead edge" effects due to the lack of retail on the opposing side.

Regarding the TIF district, I wish they finessed the boundaries a bit more, instead of doing straight-up neighborhood boundaries. There's no reason, IMHO, to put Duquense/UMPC Mercey within the TIF. And the portions of West Oakland around DeRaud/Moutine should have been included.

Last edited by eschaton; Sep 10, 2014 at 4:09 PM.
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  #9631  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 3:22 PM
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  #9632  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 3:37 PM
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As a reminder, this is what it looked like in 2010:



I think there have been some subtle improvements. Assuming A and C are pedestrian-accessible public alleys/steps, connectivity through the western portion of the site has been greatly improved. In most places, it looks like there could now be a pretty good streetwall effect, and there is little or no surface parking left (maybe just for the townhouses).

So I am actually pretty happy with this template. However, it would be great if more of those apartment blocks could be along the lines of Sky Vue, or at least more in the 8-12 story range. Much will also depend on the height of the office buildings (I think in blue on that map). Finally, I'd personally be happy if the townhouses were entirely eliminated, but I do think the little section where they have it is not a huge problem.

Last edited by BrianTH; Sep 10, 2014 at 3:58 PM.
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  #9633  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I also don't like the orientation of retail towards Bedford and Centre. IMHO it should all be on Wylie, because those streets will have "dead edge" effects due to the lack of retail on the opposing side
The Centre commercial stretch is across from Consol, and I suspect is supposed to help lead event attenders over along Street 1 to Wylie. I've always suggested they should be trying to do something a little along the lines of the area around the Verizon Center in DC, and this approach makes sense to me.

On the other hand, I don't get the ground-floor commercial along Bedford opposite Crosstown. Maybe stuff which is office-oriented?

I guess the other thing is that from there, you have some great views of Downtown:

View from Bedford

So perhaps destination restaurants could work, although I would wonder about noise from Crosstown and the ramps.
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  #9634  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 3:53 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
I think there have been some subtle improvements. Assuming A and C are pedestrian-accessible public alleys/steps, connectivity through the western portion of the site has been greatly improved. In most places, it looks like there could now be a pretty good streetwall effect, and there is little or no surface parking left.
I see what you mean regarding connectivity. From a road standpoint though, the plan is worse. What's labeled Street 3 used to continue the whole length of the development, and now is only accessible to cars for one block. And the pedestrian pathway at A replaced a former road connection. I'm not sure why Webster Avenue couldn't have been continued through Street 4 as well.

Overall the plan has a lot of green space - IMHO a bit too much given the location close to downtown. I can understand the appeal of central green courtyards coupled with apartment complexes, and I can understand the three different blocks reserved for green space, but together they seem like a bit of an overkill.
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  #9635  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Housing looks too sparse (townhouses, really?), which makes me think the planned massing is barely upscaled from Crawford Square.
The more I look at it--it appears to me a major design goal was to have the parts immediately adjacent to Crawford Square not appear to step up in scale too much. As you go down the hill toward Downtown, or stay up in the east but right along Centre and Bedford, there are larger apartment buildings.

I recall this being a theme all the way back to the earliest versions, and I believe there have always been people lobbying for the development not looking like too much of a wall from Crawford Square. I personally don't care about that at all, but assuming that is an unavoidable constraint, they are getting pretty close to minimizing the adverse impacts.
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  #9636  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianTH View Post
The more I look at it--it appears to me a major design goal was to have the parts immediately adjacent to Crawford Square not appear to step up in scale too much. As you go down the hill toward Downtown, or stay up in the east but right along Centre and Bedford, there are larger apartment buildings.

I recall this being a theme all the way back to the earliest versions, and I believe there have always been people lobbying for the development not looking like too much of a wall from Crawford Square. I personally don't care about that at all, but assuming that is an unavoidable constraint, they are getting pretty close to minimizing the adverse impacts.
Hrrm...looking at the massing I see that the pitched-roof apartments (which presumably aren't more than 3/4 stories) are virtually all ones which front on Crawford Street. It would make sense to scale these the lowest, given they are the highest up the hill. It might even be possible with the pitch of the hill to have a roughly flat profile of the rooftops as you head down those blocks, although I'd prefer more height at the bottom.

I wonder which section the Penguins will develop first - closer to town, or closer to Crawford Square? I also wonder if they'll try and segregate out (no pun intended) the low-income units, so they aren't in the buildings closest to Downtown.
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  #9637  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 4:44 PM
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I echo eschaton's criticisms... especially regarding the abundance of 'community open space'. The Cap is sufficient.
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  #9638  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
What's labeled Street 3 used to continue the whole length of the development, and now is only accessible to cars for one block.
I believe that is a grade issue: that upper northeast corner is on a really pretty severe slope overall, because the site is rising up significantly both eastwise and northwise there. In fact the grade on Crawford shifts up notably as you move along Centre north past Wylie, and again past Webster. So personally, I have no problem with cars not being able to bisect that particular area along the path of Street 3, since it isn't really necessary for greater connectivity (Street 3 would terminate anyway at Centre and Bedford).

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And the pedestrian pathway at A replaced a former road connection. I'm not sure why Webster Avenue couldn't have been continued through Street 4 as well.
Same basic answer, I believe. There is a big drop in elevation between Crawford and Street 2. I think they are already going to have carve Street 3 a bit into the hill, and I think the path marked A is going to have a pretty big drop from the alley portion accessible from Crawford down to Street 3. I think that transition is likely going to be steps/ramps--that was indicated in the application for a TIGER grant, and it looks to me like those sections with two brown paths on either side of a green median are representative of steps/ramps areas.

And I believe it is again the same issue with Path C between the alley portion across from Webster and Street 4. That is going to be a big elevation drop, with steps/ramps. In fact I think that little square at the end of Street 4 will have steps coming up from Wylie, and then steps coming down from both Bedford and Webster. It looks like there is again an alley off Bedford (for parking under the northeasternmost apartment block I would guess), then alleys from the square for access to the lower portions of the townhouse complex (the upper portions getting access from the Crawford alley).

Quote:
Overall the plan has a lot of green space - IMHO a bit too much given the location close to downtown. I can understand the appeal of central green courtyards coupled with apartment complexes, and I can understand the three different blocks reserved for green space, but together they seem like a bit of an overkill.
The central open spaces are more or less inevitable given the size of the blocks, but it could be something more like Sky Vue where those are elevated openings on top of a base.

And I actually wonder if that is the plan--trying to figure out parking, I think it basically has to have more parking we are not seeing under D and B, either side of A, and either side of Street 4. And it looks to me like there is possible access to such parking off Street 1 for D, off Street 2 for B, off Street 3 for south of A, off the alley for north of A, off Street 2 for north of Street 4, and off Street 4 for south of Street 4. So many or all of those may be more like green roofs over parking than surface-level open spaces. For that matter, maybe E too--there is a garage above grade, but also what could be access to some underground parking off Street 1 and Street 2.

The cap park has to be mostly open space, since that is not going to support the weight of buildings (at least not without a MUCH higher cost than just a cap park). So I think the remaining question is whether they really need both a "civic open space" and a "community open space". That's sort of a judgment call in urban design.

Personally, I'd probably give up the "civic open space" for another mixed-use block. And maybe that can in fact be revisited down the road when they get around to that portion of the development.

Last edited by BrianTH; Sep 10, 2014 at 5:00 PM.
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  #9639  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 4:51 PM
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I also wonder if they'll try and segregate out (no pun intended) the low-income units, so they aren't in the buildings closest to Downtown.
It seems that clumping the affordable units further away from downtown would be preferred (at least by the developers). And given how unenthusiastic the Penguins are to include those units, I would suspect that will be how if plays out. That is, if permissible under the agreement.

I also wonder if the agreement spells out a construction schedule for market versus affordable? If the affordable units are further from downtown, would the Pens be allowed to first build out closer to Crosstown?
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  #9640  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2014, 5:05 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
It might even be possible with the pitch of the hill to have a roughly flat profile of the rooftops as you head down those blocks, although I'd prefer more height at the bottom.
That was also a related theme in the early designs--to preserve a "Downtown view" from Crawford Square by having the heights line up as the hill sloped down. Later information suggested they were looking at a range for the buildings down closer to Downtown, and on the higher end of that range they would basically become part of the Downtown view. I personally think that is exactly what should happen--I see no reason a "Downtown view", or Downtown itself, has to start on the other side of Crosstown. I think the mental boundary of Downtown should at least push out to Street 2, and really Street 3 (I'll concede east of Street 3 as a transition block).

Quote:
I wonder which section the Penguins will develop first - closer to town, or closer to Crawford Square? I also wonder if they'll try and segregate out (no pun intended) the low-income units, so they aren't in the buildings closest to Downtown.
Up toward Crawford Square, I believe. And I suspect you are right about what they might try to do with the location of the lower-income units.

Last edited by BrianTH; Sep 10, 2014 at 5:16 PM.
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