Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

The 96 B Line sucks. Waited 25 min at Surrey Central until I sprinted for a 320. This is a normal occurrence here.

That's the issue with BRT and non-grade separated transit options including LRT without queue jumpers. It doesn't matter how frequent or large a bus is, if they are stuck in a traffic jam, they go nowhere.

All the construction at KGB and 88th is delaying not just the 96-B but the 321 also.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by jhausner

That's the issue with BRT and non-grade separated transit options including LRT without queue jumpers. It doesn't matter how frequent or large a bus is, if they are stuck in a traffic jam, they go nowhere.

All the construction at KGB and 88th is delaying not just the 96-B but the 321 also.

Ironically, the construction activity being done is to build queue jumper lanes to benefit 96 B-Line and 321 buses. They're actually building 4-block-long curb-side lanes approaching 88th Ave in each direction, and 2-block-long lanes approaching 76th Ave as well - according to the latest TIC reports.

In the future, a median right-of-way can prevent more issues with buses being stuck in congestion. I do, however, also think that any shortfalls may be made up by a bus's ability to reroute just in-case: i.e. it's a big advantage over having light rail trains completely blocked by track obstructions that may be accidents or other things.

[MIPS]

The biggest problem is the very dated nature of the SkyTrain communications system... it's only meant to do one of two things:
- live announcements to either the trains or the stations
- pre-recorded station/line announcements when a train approaches/stops at a station

The PSA recordings are probably a cheap addon to the recording system, and they are most likely done on the live feed manually by staff, which is why they are rather infrequent, of terrible quality, and interrupt any station or route annoucements on board trains when they go off.

Perhaps it's time for TransLink to upgrade the whole communications/ in-station destination display system to be more like the Canada Line, but I have a feeling the average person won't believe/understand it when they see the high budgetary costs for such an extensive rebuild.

Irrelevant ramble of requirements below:
- announcements in process of playing take precedence over new ones
- if new one arrives while existing one playing, queue for playing 10 seconds after the last
- more types of pre-recorded messages for most common types of situations (mechanical trouble, computer fault, medical emergency, person on tracks, escalator/elevator out of service, special events, etc)
- messages can be sent to either all trains, a specific set of trains, all stations, a specific set of stations, etc.
- selective train feature may require an upgrade to SelTrac - if cost-prohibitive, leave out for now;
- existing pre-recorded station/line features should be retained

Just before they started adding the faregates they added two new announcements in the stations. Both essentially advising passengers to have valid proofs of payment. I have not heard them in years now but both were crystal clear. From Joyce I could still hear them from across the street.

With announcements in the train they add and remove announcements all the time. They just make the recording, program a trigger location and the playback is automatic. If you don't want to mess with triggering just add the static message after the station announcement and add several seconds of silence to space announcements out. It can be overridden by live intercom messages at any time. My assumption is that it is less the system cannot handle the messages and more a time intensive task (not to mention they might have to hire Laureen Regan again) so they make do with the McDonalds drivethrough quality broadcasts.
They've upgraded the announcement system at least once. I have old video footage from 1991 and it has a very robotic "the next station..is.......Columbia." announcement. Apparently it was still around in 1999 according to another video.

[jsbertram]

Sadly, it might take someone to get electrocuted on the 600 VDC for passengers to re-think "escape the car" when a train stops between stations.

I find the media blaring that the 600 VDC is a killer if you're walking on the tracks a bit shrill and misleading. I have yet to see a video of the crowds escaping the trains using anything other than the catwalk beside the idled train. I haven't seen anyone actually on the tracks, nor walking along the track ledge above the 600 Volt power rails.

Yes, there is 600 VOLTS OF ELECTRICITY there in the power rails.

But you'll notice that the catwalks that everyone walks on is on the OTHER side of the tracks -away from the power rails.

And the track rails themselves are grounded.

You'd have to be Darwinian Award -level stupid to be somehow touching either (or both) of the power rails AND a track rail to get electrocuted.


While I'm ranting, can someone tell the TV media that video taken from their helicopters of a train sitting at a holding track (between the mainline tracks) is NOT a stalled train filled with panicked passengers. It is just an empty train waiting to be put into service again.

harumph

[spm2013]

I guess there are certain situations where you would need to cross back if the platform is in the middle? Though I assume they cut power soon after if they see doors being opened on a stopped train.

[ninjakafi_81]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Sadly, it might take someone to get electrocuted on the 600 VDC for passengers to re-think "escape the car" when a train stops between stations.

I find the media blaring that the 600 VDC is a killer if you're walking on the tracks a bit shrill and misleading. I have yet to see a video of the crowds escaping the trains using anything other than the catwalk beside the idled train. I haven't seen anyone actually on the tracks, nor walking along the track ledge above the 600 Volt power rails.

Yes, there is 600 VOLTS OF ELECTRICITY there in the power rails.

But you'll notice that the catwalks that everyone walks on is on the OTHER side of the tracks -away from the power rails.

And the track rails themselves are grounded.

You'd have to be Darwinian Award -level stupid to be somehow touching either (or both) of the power rails AND a track rail to get electrocuted.


While I'm ranting, can someone tell the TV media that video taken from their helicopters of a train sitting at a holding track (between the mainline tracks) is NOT a stalled train filled with panicked passengers. It is just an empty train waiting to be put into service again.

harumph

Is this the clip you're referring to ?

@1:13

http://globalnews.ca/video/1548627/fallout-from-fridays-skytrain-breakdown

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by spm2013

I guess there are certain situations where you would need to cross back if the platform is in the middle? Though I assume they cut power soon after if they see doors being opened on a stopped train.

The power rail is always opposite the catwalk or the platform. It switches sides where people are required to cross the tracks. Since there are power pickups on both sides of the train and on the bogies at both ends of the train, there can be a fairly long gap in the power rail (the distance between the bogies) where people cross the tracks. Since a car can operate off any of the power pickups, it doesn't loose power at long as at least one of its pickup shoes can touch one of the power rails.

A bigger danger to people is probably someone slipping next to the train and touching one of the pickup shoes on the catwalk side. All the pickup shoes are connected, so if power is being supplied to the train then all of those pickup shoes are all live. If the 600V can find a way from there back to the grounded running rail, it will do so.

[dpogue]

There are some places, especially around switches, where there are live power rails on both side of the track. These are also places where crosswalks are usually required to go from the centre walkway out to the side for the switch controls, and then back to the centre.

It's also worth noting that while most of the system has a handrail along the walkway (designated walkways) parts of the older Expo line do not have handrails except close to stations (undesignated walkways). Even SkyTrain personnel aren't allowed to use those walkways sections without control centre authorization and track closures.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Ironically, the construction activity being done is to build queue jumper lanes to benefit 96 B-Line and 321 buses. They're actually building 4-block-long curb-side lanes approaching 88th Ave in each direction, and 2-block-long lanes approaching 76th Ave as well - according to the latest TIC reports.

In the future, a median right-of-way can prevent more issues with buses being stuck in congestion. I do, however, also think that any shortfalls may be made up by a bus's ability to reroute just in-case: i.e. it's a big advantage over having light rail trains completely blocked by track obstructions that may be accidents or other things.

That's a good point and I guess short turn pain for long term gain. 88th and 76th definitely need queue jumper lanes though they are by far the worst intersections in rush hour especially the stretch from 80th to 76th Southbound.

But yah definitely a good point you bring up versus LRT and being blocked completely.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Exactly.

While Sktrain has had 2 major delays / problems this summer that Translink should take full responsibility for, people exiting trains after 5 minutes or so is unexceptable.

In general people have been spoiled with skytrain. 5 minute, 10 minute, even 15 minute delays are common place on most metros in the world.

Even here in Japan, the most punctual train system in the world, I have been caught up in a few 5 to 10 minute delays in the last year. No one would even think about leaving one of the train cars unless they were told to do so by the transit authority, or the thing was on fire.

Time for the transit police to crack down the next time there is a delay.

But it also time for Translink to become more professional in their transit service announcements / information relay systems.

Doesn't happen when we agree on something but this is one of those times.

Although Translink could do a better job of FREQUENCY updating the passengers on the delays and what is causing them, there is no absolutely no excuse for exiting a train mid way between stations unless directed to.

Translink should not be pussy footing around with this, the fines should be upwards of $2000 or more to get it thru these people's thick heads that not only is this dangerous but also makes delays longer. As far as I'm concerned if a person is caught twice doing this it should mean jail time and a permanent ban on using the transit system. Just because it's a public service doesn't give one the right to ignore safety rules, they are there for a reason.

As once a welfare worker where people went to get food and shelter, the signs and policies were quite clear..........threatening or dangerous would not be tolerated and you would be thrown out of the office and not allowed to return and if that meant you lived on the street and starved then too bad.

I have absolutely no empathy for people who do this and neither should Translink.

[Metro-One]

Haha, yes, we actually do agree on this.

[officedweller]

Report from the Pembina Institute on rapid transit
- note their qualifiers in defining the terms and the city populations.

http://www.pembina.org/pub/fast-cities

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Report from the Pembina Institute on rapid transit
- note their qualifiers in defining the terms and the city populations.

http://www.pembina.org/pub/fast-cities

Interesting - and surprisingly disappointing - that Vancouver has the lowest number of rapid transit trips per capita annually.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Interesting - and surprisingly disappointing - that Vancouver has the lowest number of rapid transit trips per capita annually.

I think the main problem with that is the definition of "rapid transit". It's essentially anything that isn't a bus.

[Metro-One]

There are a lot of problems with that report. They seem to have really lowballed Toronto's population (looks like they just used the city proper) while using all of Vancouver's metro population.

Also if that is Ottawa (and not a typo that is suppose to say Edmonton) are they counting the rapid bus system as rapid transit??

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Doesn't happen when we agree on something but this is one of those times.

Although Translink could do a better job of FREQUENCY updating the passengers on the delays and what is causing them, there is no absolutely no excuse for exiting a train mid way between stations unless directed to.

Translink should not be pussy footing around with this, the fines should be upwards of $2000 or more to get it thru these people's thick heads that not only is this dangerous but also makes delays longer. As far as I'm concerned if a person is caught twice doing this it should mean jail time and a permanent ban on using the transit system. Just because it's a public service doesn't give one the right to ignore safety rules, they are there for a reason.

As once a welfare worker where people went to get food and shelter, the signs and policies were quite clear..........threatening or dangerous would not be tolerated and you would be thrown out of the office and not allowed to return and if that meant you lived on the street and starved then too bad.

I have absolutely no empathy for people who do this and neither should Translink.

Right now the fine for entering the track area without authorization is $110. That's pretty low considering there's no reason you would be out there unless you have real intentions and the forced downtime is expensive for both passengers and TransLink. The signage is everywhere warning of the penalties. $2000 sounds like a good maximum fine in an example like you were caught after hours on the track AND tagging the trains (it's happened. There was an extremely expensive incident a few years ago) but bumping the minimum fine to $200 or even $300 seems more fair with repeat offences upping to $400-$500 then $600-$700, then on the third strike a full ban. In the city of Vancouver even the minimum fine for littering is $200.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think the main problem with that is the definition of "rapid transit". It's essentially anything that isn't a bus.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

There are a lot of problems with that report. They seem to have really lowballed Toronto's population (looks like they just used the city proper) while using all of Vancouver's metro population.

Also if that is Ottawa (and not a typo that is suppose to say Edmonton) are they counting the rapid bus system as rapid transit??

... although I may be wrong, it seems to include busses in all 5 cities.
Anyway, Ottawa has not got either lrt OR rrt, just a busway system, and they included that.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Interesting - and surprisingly disappointing - that Vancouver has the lowest number of rapid transit trips per capita annually.

Note the qualifiers to the report -
They use the entire TransLink service area - which they expressly state includes large suburban areas with sparse population - by comparison for Toronto they use the City of Toronto proper (i.e. south of Steeles Ave.), and for Montreal, it is the Island of Montreal.
They state that this yields artificially low results for Vancouver.

[GMasterAres]

Yah transit ridership comparisons are difficult because each transit authority reports numbers differently. It is really difficult to break out Translink's numbers for example because they typically only say:

SkyTrain 293821938213 riders
WCE 2831728312 riders

And they don't break it down by city or region or anything. Same with buses, and the bus lines are always a full year behind on individual ridership numbers if you even get them.

Other cities also provide different statistics for different areas and exclude certain things too.

I think a telling stat combined with the "per capita" is the number of people within 1km from rapid transit. Vancouver checks out as the lowest of the bunch underlining the fact they used all of Metro and the numbers will be artificially lower.

All I am gathering from the report is that 1) Vancouver has invested heavy as a region in rapid transit in recent decades and 2) in all major cities, people are using transit...

[NewfBC]

Is the Canada Line’s Richmond-Brighouse Station in need of a complete re-build to accommodate a second track and additional platform?
http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2014/09/canad...-single-platform-causes-passengers-wait/