PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX - Page 230

1487 · #**4581** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 12:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Is 1213 Walnut really going get developed?

I was going to say same thing. I've heard next to nothing about this project in the press. seems like a pipe dream.

1487 · #**4582** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 12:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

That's also not including the 3 main waterfront properties that seem close to reality in 205 Race, One Water Sq. and Renaissance Plaza. All would have noticeable enough height in their locations to stand out.

Also, the tower at mellon independence, 5th and walnut and the dranoff project near the river all seem like they are definitely going forward. Not that there is any one view that would show all of the new buildings.

PhiLaw · #**4583** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 1:43 PM**

Dranoff's One Riverside Plans Released - Condos:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/ho..._condos__not_rentals__Dranoff_says_.html

cafeguy · #**4584** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 1:49 PM**

They just removed the south facing DREXEL sign from university crossings. What gives? Thats the edge of the "innovation neighborhood" and I really liked it!

br323206 · #**4585** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 2:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhiLaw

The degree of affluence in Boston compared to Philadelphia cannot be prepared, which is why it was contemplated by my previous post.

There are a few maxims in economics which are sacrosanct, and this is one of them.

1) People will, on balance, take care of their own property far better than they will other people's property.

E.G. Track the decline in homeownership in NE Philly with the aesthetic/social breakdown of certain neighborhoods. The correlation is glaring. TONS of my NE pals will attest to this. Previous scenes of perfectly kept yards in many neighborhoods have been replaced with overgrown hedges and grass. Again, I am saying on balance.

Coming from someone that studies economic development and gets paid for it I can say that your maxim is far from sacrosanct. People that are more educated and have more money take better care of property. It doesn't matter whether those people rent or own. West Philly (outside of University City) has a high home ownership rate. Rittenhouse Square has a low home ownership rate. Which is better maintained? Socioeconomic factors are the big driver here, not occupancy status. It just so happens that the socioeconomic characteristics that make you more likely to be a homeowner also make you more likely to be someone that takes care of your property.

PhiLaw · #**4586** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 4:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by br323206

Coming from someone that studies economic development and gets paid for it I can say that your maxim is far from sacrosanct. People that are more educated and have more money take better care of property. It doesn't matter whether those people rent or own. West Philly (outside of University City) has a high home ownership rate. Rittenhouse Square has a low home ownership rate. Which is better maintained? Socioeconomic factors are the big driver here, not occupancy status. It just so happens that the socioeconomic characteristics that make you more likely to be a homeowner also make you more likely to be someone that takes care of your property.

As of October of last year, Homeowners' net worth was 30 times greater than their renter counterparts. You can argue that this is mere correlation and not causation - or inverse causation (higher net worths are more likely to purchase a home), but it is difficult to discount the value in owning a brick-and-morter asset over time. This is a very powerful thing. Another fact that proves causation - 61.4% of the net worth of Americans is from home equity.

Source: http://www.shorewest.com/blog/federal-re...h-is-over-30-times-greater-than-renters/

Also, your statement re West Philly is comparing apples and oranges. For your conclusion to be correct, you have to compare areas with the demographics/affluence of West Philly homeowners with that of Renters of the same demos. Also compare high-net worth homeowners with high-net worth renters.

br323206 · #**4587** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 5:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhiLaw

As of October of last year, Homeowners' net worth was 30 times greater than their renter counterparts. You can argue that this is mere correlation and not causation - or inverse causation (higher net worths are more likely to purchase a home), but it is difficult to discount the value in owning a brick-and-morter asset over time. This is a very powerful thing. Another fact that proves causation - 61.4% of the net worth of Americans is from home equity.

Source: http://www.shorewest.com/blog/federal-re...h-is-over-30-times-greater-than-renters/

Also, your statement re West Philly is comparing apples and oranges. For your conclusion to be correct, you have to compare areas with the demographics/affluence of West Philly homeowners with that of Renters of the same demos. Also compare high-net worth homeowners with high-net worth renters.

You're not saying anything that proves renters don't take care of their properties all else equal. Which is what you were claiming. Yes, homeowners are more likely to be higher net worth individuals. That makes intuitive sense. That doesn't say anything about who takes care of their properties.

Your point about West Philly and Rittenhouse being apples and oranges is exactly what I was getting at. The demographics/affluence is the difference that matters. Not the fact that one group is renters.

My issue was really just with your phrasing. You made it seem like the idea that renters don't take care of their properties is an accepted "maxim" (your word) in economics. It's not. The relationship between neighborhood development and home ownership is something that is continually studied and there are no concrete statements that can be made regarding causation here. It's nit picking, but it's important when discussing such a complex issue.

josef · #**4588** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 6:11 PM**

Thought you guys might enjoy some photos from the Dilworth Park opening earlier. Overall what was open seemed cool. I can't wait to check it out when there's room to explore it without a billion people around. The parts still under construction have a few of the best parts of it to me, like the grove of trees, the law, a fountain, and the glowing transit line art. Oh and I finally got to see Nutter in person. Ha.

15th Street sidewalk:

Information panel at the base of the transit entrances

Transit entrance and way finding sign

Yellow chairs on the 15th Street side

Green chairs on the JFK Blvd side

Rosa Blanca, the new Jose Garces restaurant

Under construction area, with transit line art

WHYY reporter vs man on stilts

iheartphilly · #**4589** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 6:23 PM**

Nice photos, Josef...thanks for sharing them!

1487 · #**4590** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 6:27 PM**

I was just over there and its really a shame the rest wont be done for 2 months. It really does impact your ability to fully enjoy the space. At least you can walk through city hall from east to west again. finally.

Philly-Drew · #**4591** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 6:38 PM**

Yes Josef, thanks for sharing the pics! It looks like it was a lot of fun. Wish I was there too.

And Philly-Steaks, awesome job on visual rundown. Really nice work. Thanks!

begoonie · #**4592** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 6:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cafeguy

They just removed the south facing DREXEL sign from university crossings. What gives? Thats the edge of the "innovation neighborhood" and I really liked it!

They are actually putting it back up. It was removed several months ago due to the work they are doing on the outside of the building.

josef · #**4593** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 7:14 PM**

Sure thing!

PhiLaw · #**4594** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 9:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by br323206

You're not saying anything that proves renters don't take care of their properties all else equal. Which is what you were claiming. Yes, homeowners are more likely to be higher net worth individuals. That makes intuitive sense. That doesn't say anything about who takes care of their properties.

Your point about West Philly and Rittenhouse being apples and oranges is exactly what I was getting at. The demographics/affluence is the difference that matters. Not the fact that one group is renters.

My issue was really just with your phrasing. You made it seem like the idea that renters don't take care of their properties is an accepted "maxim" (your word) in economics. It's not. The relationship between neighborhood development and home ownership is something that is continually studied and there are no concrete statements that can be made regarding causation here. It's nit picking, but it's important when discussing such a complex issue.

When you rent a home, your home has use value, which incentivizes you to take care of it.

When you own a home, your home has both use and exchange value, providing the added incentive to keep the house in a state of repair. This correlation has been noted for decades. (See Rohe and Stewart, '96; Harvard Joint Center for Housing Studies, etc.)

I never said renters don't take care of their properties. Re-read my post: I said that on balance, homeowners tend to take care of their property more (on an aggregate level) than renters. "On balance" does not mean all renters take care of their property a little bit less. On balance means that when you aggregate all of the data, the net aesthetic and social benefit comes out on the side of home ownership.

This relationship can be explained by a maxim, which is more constitutional than economic: individuals tend to take care of their own property (on balance) more than they do other people's property.

This is similar to the use of money, placed on a four-point continuum:

(1) The best way to spend money is on yourself, because people (on balance) maximize quality and minimize price on a scale.

(2) The worst way to spend money is to spend other people's money on yourself, because you care a lot about quality but less about price (e.g., expense accounts, health care spending of insurance companies' money, etc.)

The other two are somewhere in the middle: spending your own money on other people; and spending other people's money on other people.

PhillySteaks · #**4595** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 9:59 PM**

I don't really care a whole lot for this whole renting vs owning argument...just a couple observations though...

Owning vs renting is far and wide the better option financially. I'd go on a tirade backing up that statement but as mentioned before, I don't really care a whole lot.

Also, just dealing with lots of multi-family buildings over the years. Even high end apartment buildings, such as those in NY with tenants able to afford rents upwards of $3k a month for a 1 bedroom. It is very rare to see tenants take care or not act reckless at the property. Hell it wasn't too long ago one set a fence on the roof deck on fire. They extinguished it using the extinguishers. And yea it was an accident and they had some people over who probably were the cause. But they left it like that and didn't fess up. We had to check tape. This happens more often then not. People 9 times out of 10 take care of things better when they are owned.

shadowbat2 · #**4596** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 11:00 PM**

Nice pics josef!

Oh and BTW in case none of you were aware: Today is National Skyscraper Day!!

summersm343 · #**4597** Posted **Sep 4, 2014, 11:49 PM**

Nabriva Therapeutics - Austrian Biotech company, planing to open US subsidiary in the Philadelphia area
Let's hope they land somewhere in Philadelphia! Smells like a Navy Yard or UCity type of company

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/...ian-biotech-company-hires-local-ceo.html

Philadelphia: A future 'Silicon Valley of Energy Research'?

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/...a-a-future-silicon-valley-of-energy.html

mPhilly · #**4598** Posted **Sep 5, 2014, 12:25 AM**

Rent vs. own - you're both right. As for the smarter option financially--definitely its owning. Still, you will continue to see the rental market boom as student loans and other factors make it hard for people (even some with very respectable incomes) to secure mortgages.

Dilworth Plaza - I was disappointed with the "cafe"... it looked like a glorified snack shop. I thought it was supposed to be a full-service cafe?

Flyers2001 · #**4599** Posted **Sep 5, 2014, 4:38 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mPhilly

Rent vs. own - you're both right. As for the smarter option financially--definitely its owning. Still, you will continue to see the rental market boom as student loans and other factors make it hard for people (even some with very respectable incomes) to secure mortgages.

Dilworth Plaza - I was disappointed with the "cafe"... it looked like a glorified snack shop. I thought it was supposed to be a full-service cafe?

I do not agree with the use of "smarter" to describe owning over renting. In many cases it can be personal choice.

I own a home now, but my wife and I are thinking about selling and renting. We are debating pro's and con's, such as return, up keep, taxes, location and so forth. One thing that comes to mind is the amount of time one spends, mowing the law, shoveling the snow and repairs, when that could be spent doing other things.

Just throwing my opinion out there.

Flyers2001 · #**4600** Posted **Sep 5, 2014, 7:50 AM**

http://universitycity.org/sites/default/files/State-of-UC-2013-web.pdf

This might have been posted before, but its a recap of all that's going on in Ucity.

**Edit: This was posted, but its good to go back and see the headway made on many of these projects. One of the items that stood out was the expected 10% increase in Ucity Population over the next 3 years. Besides students if many graduates decide to stay and live it will be a great thing for the city.