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  #4561  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 1:22 PM
Baconboy007 Baconboy007 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
There is no way to have no smell in those concourses 24/7 for obvious reasons. The concourses have been cleaned by the CCD for the last 6-7 years and they worked to eliminate urine smells and did a decent job. SEPTA now cleans the concourses and several mornings I have exited the subway to smell a fresh orange cleanser in the corridors around City Hall. As for the condition, SEPTA is now on the hook to rehab the concourses (since they finally have sufficient capital money) and plan to put $40M into the tunnels in future years. The City turned them over to SEPTA within recent months.
I've seen them cleaning multiple times but it doesn't seem to eliminate the smell. And the whole point of my original comment is that I hope they are announcing something more than just a name change. Maybe they'll be be releasing renderings of what they plan to do with that $40M and when we can start to see work being done. I would imagine with what's going on at Market East and the renovations above ground we might see some of that continue under ground.
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  #4562  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 2:06 PM
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I've seen them cleaning multiple times but it doesn't seem to eliminate the smell. And the whole point of my original comment is that I hope they are announcing something more than just a name change. Maybe they'll be be releasing renderings of what they plan to do with that $40M and when we can start to see work being done. I would imagine with what's going on at Market East and the renovations above ground we might see some of that continue under ground.
By all accounts the press conference is about name change only. I doubt they have even started design on the concourse improvements, they've only had control over them for a couple of months. If you believe the concourse reeks of urine 24/7, even after a cleaning than I suppose it will always smell that way to you. Not sure what you propose be done- even if its renovated someone can still relieve themselves down there. $40m in upgrades wont change that fact.
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  #4563  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tsarstruck View Post
Don't want to re-argue the whole "should Conshy development be posted here," but this NYTimes article on Conshy's new developments has this claim:



Can that possibly be true that Philly taxes add 40% to rents?
Doubt it, thats sounds like a statement being made in order to advertise one's own development. Class A rates in the western suburbs are generally the same as, or slightly lower than similar space downtown. That deflates the argument that suburban buildings can charge a premium because companies enjoy a $10/sf tax advantage. On top of that, vacancy rates in the suburbs are higher than CC Philly.
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  #4564  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 3:09 PM
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I don't understand why society has to keep relitigating issues that have time and again been as conclusive as a post-modern world will allow. Lower homeownership rates occasions disaster for working/middle/upper-middle class cities/towns. If you want to know why, research it.
The Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH MSA has a home ownership rate of 61.51% as of 2012, or 3.19% lower than the national average. Boston itself has a home ownership rate of 33.21%, or ridiculously lower than average. There's a lot going on in any metro and I really don't feel like enumerating it all, but by and large both that city and that metro do fairly well in life by American standards.

I'm not saying I'm against home ownership (I own a few walls and a roof), but after living in a renter's city for years and coming back here, I can't blindly accept the simplistic idea that if only Philly had more homeowners, it'd be better off. It just doesn't correlate that straightforwardly in my mind. To me it's the attitudes of everyone in your city and metro that determine how well it's going to do. (Like just because people own homes in various parts of the city doesn't mean they stay clean and they're awesome, pro-civic people, right? Are those homeowners the reason the city feels comfortable putting up pop up beer gardens and other amenities that new residents, renters they mostly all are, enjoy?)

Source: http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr12-20.pdf
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  #4565  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 3:10 PM
Baconboy007 Baconboy007 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
By all accounts the press conference is about name change only. I doubt they have even started design on the concourse improvements, they've only had control over them for a couple of months. If you believe the concourse reeks of urine 24/7, even after a cleaning than I suppose it will always smell that way to you. Not sure what you propose be done- even if its renovated someone can still relieve themselves down there. $40m in upgrades wont change that fact.
If my sense of smell has to be violated at least my vision can be entertained.
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  #4566  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 3:45 PM
br323206 br323206 is offline
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Originally Posted by Baconboy007 View Post
I've seen them cleaning multiple times but it doesn't seem to eliminate the smell. And the whole point of my original comment is that I hope they are announcing something more than just a name change. Maybe they'll be be releasing renderings of what they plan to do with that $40M and when we can start to see work being done. I would imagine with what's going on at Market East and the renovations above ground we might see some of that continue under ground.
I also walk through them every day and, like I said, only occasionally smell anything unpleasant. And, again, much better than other cities I've been to. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the overall cleanliness.
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  #4567  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 5:54 PM
PhiLaw PhiLaw is offline
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Originally Posted by josef View Post
The Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH MSA has a home ownership rate of 61.51% as of 2012, or 3.19% lower than the national average. Boston itself has a home ownership rate of 33.21%, or ridiculously lower than average. There's a lot going on in any metro and I really don't feel like enumerating it all, but by and large both that city and that metro do fairly well in life by American standards.

I'm not saying I'm against home ownership (I own a few walls and a roof), but after living in a renter's city for years and coming back here, I can't blindly accept the simplistic idea that if only Philly had more homeowners, it'd be better off. It just doesn't correlate that straightforwardly in my mind. To me it's the attitudes of everyone in your city and metro that determine how well it's going to do. (Like just because people own homes in various parts of the city doesn't mean they stay clean and they're awesome, pro-civic people, right? Are those homeowners the reason the city feels comfortable putting up pop up beer gardens and other amenities that new residents, renters they mostly all are, enjoy?)

Source: http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr12-20.pdf
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Lower homeownership rates occasions disaster for working/middle/upper-middle class cities/towns.
The degree of affluence in Boston compared to Philadelphia cannot be prepared, which is why it was contemplated by my previous post.

There are a few maxims in economics which are sacrosanct, and this is one of them.

1) People will, on balance, take care of their own property far better than they will other people's property.

E.G. Track the decline in homeownership in NE Philly with the aesthetic/social breakdown of certain neighborhoods. The correlation is glaring. TONS of my NE pals will attest to this. Previous scenes of perfectly kept yards in many neighborhoods have been replaced with overgrown hedges and grass. Again, I am saying on balance.
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  #4568  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 6:08 PM
PhillySteaks PhillySteaks is offline
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?

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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
Doubt it, thats sounds like a statement being made in order to advertise one's own development. Class A rates in the western suburbs are generally the same as, or slightly lower than similar space downtown. That deflates the argument that suburban buildings can charge a premium because companies enjoy a $10/sf tax advantage. On top of that, vacancy rates in the suburbs are higher than CC Philly.
He isn't making an argument that you can charge a premium, he is making an argument that setting up shop in Philadelphia compared to that of Conshohocken creates a huge hit on your business in terms of taxes. It's actually the reason Conshohocken has seen such a business boom from established and start up companies over the past few decades. That in turned has generated a strong youth presence and in turn restaurants/yadda yadda...You pay the same exact rate for class A space in Philly as you do Conshocken, you don't have the ideal downtown zip code, but you do save boatloads in city taxes. That is the incentive.

Also he is an executive directior for NGKF, a leasing broker, I'm sure he is quite credible and knowledgeable of the markets. Conshohocken is a market that and of it's own, it wouldn't be grouped in with the rest of the "western suburbs".
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  #4569  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 6:27 PM
Jelly Roll Jelly Roll is offline
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
Doubt it, thats sounds like a statement being made in order to advertise one's own development. Class A rates in the western suburbs are generally the same as, or slightly lower than similar space downtown. That deflates the argument that suburban buildings can charge a premium because companies enjoy a $10/sf tax advantage. On top of that, vacancy rates in the suburbs are higher than CC Philly.
Except Class A space is leased on a triple net basis so $35 a square foot in CC Philly is not equal to $35 in Conshohocken because the tenant is responsible for all addition taxes and expenses on top of the $35. The use and occupancy tax immediately makes Conshohocken cheaper before even factoring in the other expenses. That is not to say that one office market is better then the other just that the rent per square foot does not really tell the whole story of the true cost to the tenant.
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  #4570  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 6:43 PM
tsarstruck tsarstruck is offline
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Originally Posted by Jelly Roll View Post
Except Class A space is leased on a triple net basis so $35 a square foot in CC Philly is not equal to $35 in Conshohocken because the tenant is responsible for all addition taxes and expenses on top of the $35. The use and occupancy tax immediately makes Conshohocken cheaper before even factoring in the other expenses. That is not to say that one office market is better then the other just that the rent per square foot does not really tell the whole story of the true cost to the tenant.
I don't know what other people are questioning, but I'm not questioning that Philly taxes are higher. I'm questioning whether Philly taxes, U&O, real estate, net income, business privilege, etc. really add up to a 40% premium.
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  #4571  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 7:03 PM
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Originally Posted by josef View Post
I can't blindly accept the simplistic idea that if only Philly had more homeowners, it'd be better off. . . . (Like just because people own homes in various parts of the city doesn't mean they stay clean and they're awesome, pro-civic people, right?
The most run-down neighborhoods in Philly typically have extremely high levels of home-ownership. In fact many of the vacant, tax delinquent, wrecked houses throughout the worst slums in this city are owned not by speculators (though many are) but by dysfunctional groups of heirs who are too confused to be able to properly care for or dispose of the property.

I agree with the economic maxim that Philaw stated, in general, but at the detailed level, certain circumstances need to be in place: a person will take care of his property if he has sufficient resources and if the property has meaningful value. Take away either circumstance and chances are an owner-occupied residence will be less well-maintained than a rental.

In fact, sometimes a rental property my be better maintained in poor neighborhoods because the rental property has some basic value by virtue of the fact a third-party is willing to pay to live in it which implies that the renter is earning at least some income and has some choice and initiative as to where he live.

This is not necessarily true for many owner-occupied homes where the owner bought it and paid it off decades ago and is essentially living for free in the property on a very low fixed income.

This set of of circumstance is common in many older working class or impoverished urban or rural communities.

Then you end up having, as we do in Philly, thousands of owner-occupied homes occupied by very poor, long-term, economically immobile residents who haven't the resources to keep up their property and even if they did, might choose not to because the property has extremely low market value due to the comparative crappiness of its condition and the neighborhood in which it is located.

Then you get entire neighborhoods of poor homeowners who are trapped in their properties simply because they cannot even afford to move/live/rent anywhere else.

Renting is often done due to lifestyle choice, rather than socio-economic circumstances. Younger, high skilled, high paid, but mobile people will often rent rather than own. Less mobile people, because of age, trade or family ties, etc., will often try to own, regardless of income level.

I think it might be reasonable to suggest that when homeowners are on average wealthier than neighboring renters, owner-occupied properties will be better maintained. But when renters, due to lifestyle choices and mobility issues, are wealthier on average than local homeowners, rental properties will be better maintained.

On average, in the aggregate, perhaps owner-occupied properties are in better shape than rentals, but I would not be surprised if, on average, the most poor-condition, low-value housing segment tends to be owner-occupied (by very poor owners in very low market-value communities).

In otherwords, I'd imagine that the distribution of owner-occupied housing in terms of condition and value is very wide with "fat tails" at each end, whereas I'd imagine the rental housing distribution is relatively narrower and higher with skinnier tails at each end.

The long and short of this being, in my mind, that in moderation, Philly benefits (obviously) by an influx of mobile, higher earning renters that push the replacement of low-value, under-utilized owner occupant housing with higher value rental property.
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  #4572  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 7:06 PM
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I don't know what other people are questioning, but I'm not questioning that Philly taxes are higher. I'm questioning whether Philly taxes, U&O, real estate, net income, business privilege, etc. really add up to a 40% premium.
The last time I compared them, about a year and a half ago, it was closer to 30%. Roughly $10-15 a square foot depending on real estate assessments and which suburb you are comparing. I would have to check to see what the difference is today between Conshohocken and Philly but I would not be surprised if it was 40%. A small town with loads of commercial tax payers is always going to be able to operate with lower tax rates.
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  #4573  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 7:24 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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Except Class A space is leased on a triple net basis so $35 a square foot in CC Philly is not equal to $35 in Conshohocken because the tenant is responsible for all addition taxes and expenses on top of the $35. The use and occupancy tax immediately makes Conshohocken cheaper before even factoring in the other expenses. That is not to say that one office market is better then the other just that the rent per square foot does not really tell the whole story of the true cost to the tenant.
I believe the original statement was that you save $10-$15 per sf by not being in Philadelphia. That was the part of the statement I was disputing. I never argued that doing business in Conshy isn't cheaper than Philly in general.
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  #4574  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 7:53 PM
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I believe the original statement was that you save $10-$15 per sf by not being in Philadelphia. That was the part of the statement I was disputing.
I agree. That sounds like a gross exaggeration.
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  #4575  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2014, 8:49 PM
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Not sure if this is old news but steel is rising at 15th and Walnut. I just put some updates on the building Philly page. Going out to check out the Comcastic in person now. Hope everyone had a sweet labor day.
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  #4576  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2014, 2:21 AM
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Just curious, has anyone thought of doing something like a Google Sketchup of what Philadelphia would look like with all these proposals?
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  #4577  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2014, 2:50 AM
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I think Mappy had a pretty good outline...
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  #4578  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2014, 3:20 AM
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Is 1213 Walnut really going get developed?
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  #4579  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2014, 4:12 AM
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That's also not including the 3 main waterfront properties that seem close to reality in 205 Race, One Water Sq. and Renaissance Plaza. All would have noticeable enough height in their locations to stand out.
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  #4580  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2014, 4:38 AM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Is 1213 Walnut really going get developed?
Doubt it.

^^^that rendering above does a nice job of capturing how big of a deal the SLS Tower is going to be on the skyline. That thing is going to look like the Empire State Building at 34th street way down there at spruce. There is NOTHING around here to compete with a 600footer. Should be exciting to see rise.
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