Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by BCTed

It is also our stadium.

Then why didn't we build it where we wanted?

[CaptainKirk]

Originally Posted by king10

great bang for our buck

Disgaree.

Putting it back in that neighbourhood gives us very little bang for our buck.

It really does nothing for the city. A West Harbour stadium would have done so much more for our city.

[durandy]

Originally Posted by CaptainKirk

Disgaree.

Putting it back in that neighbourhood gives us very little bang for our buck.

It really does nothing for the city. A West Harbour stadium would have done so much more for our city.

A west harbour stadium would have deprived the city of some of the most valuable land in the city. Same for East Mountain. The stadium had to go somewhere that wouldn't have been developed without it. The current location would not have been developed without it.

[CaptainKirk]

Originally Posted by durandy

The current location would not have been developed without it.

IIRC, the current location was slated to be sold to developers for btwn $5-$7m dollars, with subsequent private housing paying annual property taxes.

The $5 - $7m was to go towards the WH stadium.

[sil]

Even though I was for a west harbour Stadium now that I see what it is. Im glad we didnt put it by the harbour with all the changes happening now that land is worth alot more......
I for one think that it wouldn't have been developed if the stadium left the Core so hopefully it spurs anything then what we had prior. City building needs to be for the community and not a pigeon hole for only one winner aka Bob Young. If they can spur onto Barton and King streets then we at least headed in the right direction with renewal..... and maybe share in the pot

[durandy]

my opinion has always been that the stadium debate was a sideline. The real issue should have been: spend the future fund on a stadium or don't, and on that I think the answer is pretty clear, we got screwed.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by BCTed

It is also our stadium.

Oh Ted. It may, in fact, be our stadium but the profits are going elsewhere, right? So then, actually, it's not really ours at all.

I don't know what sort of deal the City signed with the Ti-Cats but how it typically works is the sports franchise takes all the gravy, while the City collects the taxes and perhaps a rental fee. That rental fee is usually minimal, though. The money never makes its way back to city coffers.

Nice looking stadium > Bad investment of tax payer monies...again!

[matt602]

Isn't that exactly what is happening here though? Ontario Sports Solutions is building the stadium for the Pan-Am games. When it's complete, it's turned over to the City of Hamilton and then the Tiger-Cats pay a fee to the city to use the stadium. They make money off the tickets, merch, ads, etc. That's why OSS has been responsible for paying the Ti-Cats for the missed games, not the City (who doesn't own it yet). As far as I know, the City hasn't been responsible for anything other than the capital that they initially put in (which was still a lot more than the Ti-Cats paid). The cost overruns and screwups were made by the province. All the City has been responsible for thus far was the building permits, inspections and occupancy permit(s).

Don't get me wrong, I do think that this whole thing was heavily mis-managed through cost overruns and ridiculous deadlines and the bullying and flip-flopping from the Ti-Cats over the location definitely killed some opportunities but this is a largely a screw-up at the provincial level. There are gonna be a lot of politicians walking away from these games with some very heavy pockets, for sure.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by oldcoote

Then why didn't we build it where we wanted?

I will assume (and it may well be an incorrect assumption) that you believe a strong majority of Hamiltonians wanted the stadium at the West Harbour. I honestly don't know if that is true or not, but I (for one) am actually fine with where the stadium ended up, acknowledging full well that it would also have been fun to have some kind of actual stadium precinct or activity area.

[king10]

Originally Posted by CaptainKirk

Disgaree.

Putting it back in that neighbourhood gives us very little bang for our buck.

It really does nothing for the city. A West Harbour stadium would have done so much more for our city.

i never meant anything about the location. i meant the facility itself. it couldve been built on an island in the middle of the harbour. im talking about the actual design of the complex.

of course its a shitty location. but the land was free. so again great bang for our buck...

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Oh Ted. It may, in fact, be our stadium but the profits are going elsewhere, right? So then, actually, it's not really ours at all.

I don't know what sort of deal the City signed with the Ti-Cats but how it typically works is the sports franchise takes all the gravy, while the City collects the taxes and perhaps a rental fee. That rental fee is usually minimal, though. The money never makes its way back to city coffers.

Nice looking stadium > Bad investment of tax payer monies...again!

I can buy the argument that government subsidies for sporting venues and/or favourable rental terms for professional sports teams do not have direct payback, but I also do believe that a team like the Hamilton Tiger-Cats offers up a great deal of intangible benefits.

In my opinion, the Ti-Cats are one of the strongest sources of civic pride in Hamilton and are one of the things that gives the city some name recognition in this country. Without the team and a few other rare such institutions, I think that this city would really struggle to differentiate itself from any other town ---- it may as well be nothing more than a blue-collar suburb of Toronto without them. As far as I know, the city is also free to rent out the stadium to other groups and/or hold high school or other sporting events in the stadium.

In short, I think the investment is worth it and am happy there is a new stadium ---- I actually think the building is too bare-bones and would not have minded putting in more bucks to put together something more impressive. That said, if you are not a sports fan or do not care about the outside perception of Hamilton, then it may well not be worth it in your eyes and that is fine.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by matt602

Isn't that exactly what is happening here though? Ontario Sports Solutions is building the stadium for the Pan-Am games. When it's complete, it's turned over to the City of Hamilton and then the Tiger-Cats pay a fee to the city to use the stadium. They make money off the tickets, merch, ads, etc. That's why OSS has been responsible for paying the Ti-Cats for the missed games, not the City (who doesn't own it yet). As far as I know, the City hasn't been responsible for anything other than the capital that they initially put in (which was still a lot more than the Ti-Cats paid). The cost overruns and screwups were made by the province. All the City has been responsible for thus far was the building permits, inspections and occupancy permit(s).

Don't get me wrong, I do think that this whole thing was heavily mis-managed through cost overruns and ridiculous deadlines and the bullying and flip-flopping from the Ti-Cats over the location definitely killed some opportunities but this is a largely a screw-up at the provincial level. There are gonna be a lot of politicians walking away from these games with some very heavy pockets, for sure.

Not sure who should get the blame, but this whole thing has certainly been quite a debacle. I never would have believed that the Tiger-Cats would ever play multiple regular season games in a 6000 seat stadium or that a stadium would open in the condition that Tim Hortons Field did if these things had not actually already happened.

[king10]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Oh Ted. It may, in fact, be our stadium but the profits are going elsewhere, right? So then, actually, it's not really ours at all.

I don't know what sort of deal the City signed with the Ti-Cats but how it typically works is the sports franchise takes all the gravy, while the City collects the taxes and perhaps a rental fee. That rental fee is usually minimal, though. The money never makes its way back to city coffers.

Nice looking stadium > Bad investment of tax payer monies...again!

actually the city is making more money off this stadium ($450 000 a year x 20 years) than it did off of ivor wynne ($27 500 per year). the ticats are paying much more in yearly lease expenses and the city will still rent it out for community use. the city also retains $750 000 a year from naming rights which they sold to the cats who in turn sold that to tim hortons. thats $1.2 million a year which only takes 5 years to surpass the estimated value of selling the land. add to that $150 000 per year if the ticats get a soccer team playing in the stadium

in total the city could be making $1.55 million a year off the stadium compared to $27 500 at ivor wynne. the increased revenue streams from the new stadium not only benefit the ticats, but also the city

furthermore the city has scheduling priority over the ticats as well as receiving 50% of revenue from concession sales

the terms of the lease are here
http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/...983PW14021.pdf

this stadium isn't a great investment but it sure as hell isn't a bad one for the city. you said yourself you didn't know the sort of deal the city signed and used a "typical sports franchise that takes all the gravy" example which is not the case here. over a million dollars a year is making its way back to city coffers

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^I appreciate the response.

I would have been much happier had this investment been made in a different location. A location with more upside in terms of ROI.

And, incidentally, I am a sports fan. I've just grown weary of cities giving handouts to the wealthy. The City of Hamilton and the Province are in serious trouble and this just isn't the time for such frivolous spending.

Go Cats!

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by BCTed

I will assume (and it may well be an incorrect assumption) that you believe a strong majority of Hamiltonians wanted the stadium at the West Harbour. I honestly don't know if that is true or not, but I (for one) am actually fine with where the stadium ended up, acknowledging full well that it would also have been fun to have some kind of actual stadium precinct or activity area.

Not so much that, although I preferred the west harbour. The city had decided on a West Harbour location for our stadium, only to be bullied at the table by Bob Young and co.

A strong mayor would have told the Ti-Cats where to go. Instead we kowtowed. Brutal, unforgivable leadership.

[Tyvan]

How is work progressing on Tim Hortons Field? Have not seen any pictures of the Ti-Cats locker rooms or under stadium pictures. Anyone know if there is any of those out there?

[matt602]

Rumor that I read awhile ago said they were supposed to have the upper West stands and luxury boxes done for the next home game but aside from that, I haven't seen or heard anything.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Tyvan

How is work progressing on Tim Hortons Field? Have not seen any pictures of the Ti-Cats locker rooms or under stadium pictures. Anyone know if there is any of those out there?

There has been very little of that, probably because the drama has subsided and the delays are old news (though there are still a lot of people waiting for their real seats, and those who have had to wait for their private suites can't be very happy about that).

I imagine more will be shared once everything is done and there's a "grand opening"

[king10]

All 1000 Clubs seats on the second level will be open this Saturday for the first time.

I believe 4th Level West Side Grand Stand is to be opened October 17th.

Conflicting reports on whether the third level suites will be open Saturday or the 17th.

[king10]

Drew Edward's confirms the suite level will be open tomorrow as well.

4th deck and press box is all that remains.

The legacy Wall will also be unveiled tomorrow as well as the CFL hall of fame dispay on the club level.

http://scratchingpost.thespec.com/

https://twitter.com/rickzamperin/sta...38981161992192

http://www.900chml.com/2014/10/01/22985/