[Halifax] The Roy (1650 Granville) | 71 M | 22 FL | Completed

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by someone123

This seems pretty dubious to me. It does look like Portland has a more uniformly-preserved downtown, but where's the Citadel analogue, or the equivalent of the Public Gardens or Point Pleasant and Fleming Park, or the planned George Street-Grand Parade axis? And which buildings in Portland are a step above the Bank of NS or Dominion Building? If Portland really were ahead I think there would be clearer answers to these questions.

On top of this there's the very significant fact that downtown Halifax is seeing a huge amount of construction right now. Portland in 2020 is probably going to look at lot like Portland in 2010 (or Portland in 1980 for that matter), but Halifax is going to improve a lot over the next few years. Some of this is at odds with heavy heritage preservation. There are plenty of showcase examples of small-scale infill projects in heritage neighbourhoods but not a lot of examples of the type of transformation that has been happening around Spring Garden Road. I know relatively little about municipal politics in Portland, but I have a feeling that sort of stuff wouldn't fly there.

Despite what I said, I do think the outcome in Halifax could have been a lot better given the level of economic activity and the heritage buildings the city started out with a few decades ago. The new buildings should be going on the parking lots. I'm happy that there's so much more construction now but I had hoped that the discussion on heritage preservation would have moved forward as well and it really hasn't.

Agreed. Portland looks like a lovely city (but nothing spectacular either) that in some ways would be a better comparison to Saint John than to Halifax (if Saint John weren't so filthy and depressing). Pretty, but not monumental. Well preserved, because there's little development.

I do wish some of the older buildings in Halifax would be saved instead of destroyed. And I do wish we'd have a preserved district that was a more complete heritage area unto itself, and a neighbouring business / hi-rise district nearby that would contrast nicely with it. What we're getting instead is a mix and match approach, and hopefully it will end up well. I personally like a blend of old and new.

I also agree its a shame the discussion on heritage preservation hasn't advanced at all. I think the antidevelopment trust has really done a massive disservice to its (ostensible) cause and to the city by making it appear that heritage preservation is one and the same as all-out war against any and all development. In doing so, they've both missed many opportunities to save real heritage, and they've destroyed the credibility of and public trust in their (ostensible) movement for the last couple of decades. By the time any real heritage preservationists with integrity have come in and taken a corrective course to repair the damage the existing trust has caused, it might be too late.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by JET

I would have thought that Greenvale English would trump professor of Olde English, at least according to Dartmouth Downtown Hoyle rules.

[halifaxboyns]

I'm heading to Portland later this month. While they've done an okay job in preserving historical buildings - the 'joy' in Portland is seeing how places like the Pearl district have risen up from nothing to become quite bustling communities where people live a completely urban lifestyle. Buildings in the pearl district have no parking requirement for ground floor retail and less then 1 parking stall per dwelling unit. The reason they can do that is because Portland decided to invest in transit rather than building freeways.

1000 friends of Portland helped create their urban growth boundary but also helped push to sink a massive freeway project that would've destroyed what became the Pearl District and downtown. As a result; the money went into investing in their light rail transit system and the streetcar - which has been tremendously successful in terms of boardings per day (although the governance has been having some issues).

As a planner; I look at Portland as an example of the potential of urban living. If Halifax (or Calgary or anywhere) could take the Pearl District and replicate it to fit their city; then great things will happen. This is why (to me) Halifax has such great potential. The bones are there just waiting for that spark of inspiration.

Portland had that 'light goes on' moment that planning for the car should be the last thing and that we design cities for people. They realized that by building an efficient and effective LRT and streetcar network; people abandoned cars and chose other forms of Transportation. I've watched a few documentaries and read a few books on Portland - so I'm very excited to go and see it for myself.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

This seems pretty dubious to me. It does look like Portland has a more uniformly-preserved downtown, but where's the Citadel analogue, or the equivalent of the Public Gardens or Point Pleasant and Fleming Park, or the planned George Street-Grand Parade axis? And which buildings in Portland are a step above the Bank of NS or Dominion Building? If Portland really were ahead I think there would be clearer answers to these questions.

On top of this there's the very significant fact that downtown Halifax is seeing a huge amount of construction right now. Portland in 2020 is probably going to look at lot like Portland in 2010 (or Portland in 1980 for that matter), but Halifax is going to improve a lot over the next few years. Some of this is at odds with heavy heritage preservation. There are plenty of showcase examples of small-scale infill projects in heritage neighbourhoods but not a lot of examples of the type of transformation that has been happening around Spring Garden Road. I know relatively little about municipal politics in Portland, but I have a feeling that sort of stuff wouldn't fly there.

Despite what I said, I do think the outcome in Halifax could have been a lot better given the level of economic activity and the heritage buildings the city started out with a few decades ago. The new buildings should be going on the parking lots. I'm happy that there's so much more construction now but I had hoped that the discussion on heritage preservation would have moved forward as well and it really hasn't.

Please don't misunderstand my point. I'm not intending to suggest that Portland is a better city than Halifax or that Halifax should be like Portland. You will likely come to the conclusion if you read my posts here that I tend to fall more on the side of being very pro-Halifax and generally pleased with the direction in which the city is moving. I agree that they are two very different cities for the reasons stated and more.

My point, however, is that I saw, shopped in, ate and drank in - many buildings that had at one point had major cosmetic and structural work done. Buildings that had, despite being repurposed and functionally modernized to some extent, retained their original flavour and charm. Buildings that, like the Roy, would have been deemed unrepairable in Halifax and fallen to the wrecker's ball, in some cases resulting in an empty lot to plague the downtown for years to come. That, or gutted and façaded by some developer who will then pat himself on the back and proclaim that he 'saved' the building.

Typically when I read about the topic of saving heritage buildings on this forum, the comments usually fall on the side that it's not worth saving a particular building because it's too far gone and/or it's insignificant or whatever. My visit to Portland has shown me that this attitude does not have to be taken as gospel - there are other possible outcomes that have become a reality elsewhere.

That's all.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I'm heading to Portland later this month. While they've done an okay job in preserving historical buildings - the 'joy' in Portland is seeing how places like the Pearl district have risen up from nothing to become quite bustling communities where people live a completely urban lifestyle. Buildings in the pearl district have no parking requirement for ground floor retail and less then 1 parking stall per dwelling unit. The reason they can do that is because Portland decided to invest in transit rather than building freeways.

1000 friends of Portland helped create their urban growth boundary but also helped push to sink a massive freeway project that would've destroyed what became the Pearl District and downtown. As a result; the money went into investing in their light rail transit system and the streetcar - which has been tremendously successful in terms of boardings per day (although the governance has been having some issues).

As a planner; I look at Portland as an example of the potential of urban living. If Halifax (or Calgary or anywhere) could take the Pearl District and replicate it to fit their city; then great things will happen. This is why (to me) Halifax has such great potential. The bones are there just waiting for that spark of inspiration.

Portland had that 'light goes on' moment that planning for the car should be the last thing and that we design cities for people. They realized that by building an efficient and effective LRT and streetcar network; people abandoned cars and chose other forms of Transportation. I've watched a few documentaries and read a few books on Portland - so I'm very excited to go and see it for myself.

Oops... should have stated more clearly that it was Portland, Maine that I visited.

Tried out the Nova Star in the process and wish to report that it was a very good experience. Lots of positive comments from American tourists that I spoke to as well.

Would like to visit Oregon some day though.

[Keith P.]

The Granville Mall area seems to me to be very similar to what you experienced in Portland, ME. The trouble is that for whatever reason the bars and restos in there (excepting the Split Crow) never seem able to make it. But when Brussels, or JJ Rossys, or Peddlers Pub were in business, you had that same experience of being in old buildings that had major renovation work done to make them viable.

It would be interesting to see what happens if/when NSCAD vacates the majority of that area as seems inevitable. Will it sit empty or will businesses try to make it work? It is a bit of an island right now and without much residential around it the prospects would not be good.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Please don't misunderstand my point. I'm not intending to suggest that Portland is a better city than Halifax or that Halifax should be like Portland. You will likely come to the conclusion if you read my posts here that I tend to fall more on the side of being very pro-Halifax and generally pleased with the direction in which the city is moving. I agree that they are two very different cities for the reasons stated and more.

My point, however, is that I saw, shopped in, ate and drank in - many buildings that had at one point had major cosmetic and structural work done. Buildings that had, despite being repurposed and functionally modernized to some extent, retained their original flavour and charm. Buildings that, like the Roy, would have been deemed unrepairable in Halifax and fallen to the wrecker's ball, in some cases resulting in an empty lot to plague the downtown for years to come. That, or gutted and façaded by some developer who will then pat himself on the back and proclaim that he 'saved' the building.

Typically when I read about the topic of saving heritage buildings on this forum, the comments usually fall on the side that it's not worth saving a particular building because it's too far gone and/or it's insignificant or whatever. My visit to Portland has shown me that this attitude does not have to be taken as gospel - there are other possible outcomes that have become a reality elsewhere.

That's all.

I agree with the majority of your post. I think, though, that there are really only a couple of "tear it all down and kill it dead" advocates. i think the majority of commenters here (and more generally in Halifax) seem to want a nice balance of heritage and modernism.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The Granville Mall area seems to me to be very similar to what you experienced in Portland, ME. The trouble is that for whatever reason the bars and restos in there (excepting the Split Crow) never seem able to make it. But when Brussels, or JJ Rossys, or Peddlers Pub were in business, you had that same experience of being in old buildings that had major renovation work done to make them viable.

It would be interesting to see what happens if/when NSCAD vacates the majority of that area as seems inevitable. Will it sit empty or will businesses try to make it work? It is a bit of an island right now and without much residential around it the prospects would not be good.

Yeah, I always liked the Granville Mall area and was disappointed that it seemed to fizzle out over time. It has been alluded to here that Cogswell played a large part in the lack of pedestrian traffic by cutting off the north side of GM. It will be interesting to see if it can hang on as a pedestrian street long enough for Cogswell to be reconfigured. Maybe that will coincide with NSCAD vacating the premises - time will tell.

One thing that made Portland, ME a different experience for me was that it had a slightly more upbeat vibe - can't describe it completely but the general feel was very positive among the locals I spoke to. I have to filter out my own feelings of being in vacation mode, as every city feels better when you are on vacation and have no responsibilities, but just in general I saw a good amount of support for the businesses by locals as well as tourists (talked to an equal amount of both groups). But again, 1 week is just a small slice of life in the middle of tourist season - I don't know what it's like there in the winter months.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by portapetey

I think, though, that there are really only a couple of "tear it all down and kill it dead" advocates. i think the majority of commenters here (and more generally in Halifax) seem to want a nice balance of heritage and modernism.

Can't disagree with this statement and I wasn't meaning to overstate my point if that's how it came across. There can be extreme views expressed but I typically view those as being a little tongue-in-cheek, or at least a culmination of decades of frustration from watching our neglected heritage properties degrade or sit as bombed-out shells.

Really, the crux of my disappointment lies with the developers, the group that is supposed to be an advocate for saving heritage, and all three levels of government for not making a greater effort to come up with a plan and the means by which to save these buildings and make them viable. As mentioned, all that is harder to accept after having the opportunity to view a successful effort in person.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I had a similar reaction after visiting Portland—it's brickier in general, but there are strong similarities: east-coast port cities on a

BUT:
More upsetting is that city council just rubber-stamps every drastic facadism/demolition/major alteration that comes their way.

HRM council rubber stamped the 2013/14 Audited financial statements in 160 seconds (July 22 meeting) , and only Hendsbee asked a question - something about reserves (?) and an apparent promise from staff to provide details. Butts stopped chewing gum long enough to tell him he'd send Hendsbee the information.
Doesn't look very professional when a $300,000 a year CAO sits through council meetings chewing gum.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Doesn't look very professional when a $300,000 a year CAO sits through council meetings chewing gum.

It's quite telling isn't it? Although here in Calgary - the City Manager (equivalent role) only attends certain parts of the meeting. So each month there is the regular meeting of council and then a combined meeting of council; which includes land use public hearings. When the meeting moves from the overall agenda (which involves any of the 8 department General Manager's) - the City Manager remains in his place.

If it's a combined meeting and they move into the public hearing; the City Manager leaves and the General Manager for Planning, Development & Assessment (Rollin - my GM) sits in his place to run the public hearing. The GM of transportation will usually stay in his seat. Our City Council chamber has dedicated row of seats in front of council for the 8 general managers; they don't sit out in the gallery with the public.

The City Manager also leaves his space when the budget is going on and the Chief Financial Officer of the City sits in his place to run the budget meetings. The City Manager only returns once the public hearing/budget debates are over and the meeting returns back to the full agenda (involving all the GMs) or the end of the budget meeting is done to present final comment on the proposed budget and answer questions during deliberation. Budget generally takes 3-5 days.

Since we have a new City Manager; he may try to shake things up and change the process somewhat but we haven't had a public hearing with him in his role yet so hard to tell. We will see on the 8th of September. But our City Manager doesn't respond to things unless the General Managers can't come up with something. That seems to be the way it works in Edmonton too - but still oversee the meeting.

[someone123]

My previous post was meant to be a response specifically to the comment about Portland (ME) being more impressive way back when. I don't think that's true, outside of maybe a brief period in the early 1900's. Aside from that period it was probably the opposite.

The more interesting general observation is that, to some degree, there's a trade-off between moving forward and preserving a snapshot in time. I think more buildings could have been preserved in Halifax without much downside, but I don't think it's true in general that the city would be better off if we could turn back the clock and replace even some of the plainer highrises with old brick and wood Victorians. Park Vic for example is not exactly architecturally stunning but it must add a lot of vibrancy to its neighbourhood. We've been talking about the Roy Building, but it's not clear yet what exactly the replacement will be like. It's possible it will be a lot nicer and it will definitely have more usable space and add density.

Originally Posted by portapetey

Agreed. Portland looks like a lovely city (but nothing spectacular either) that in some ways would be a better comparison to Saint John than to Halifax (if Saint John weren't so filthy and depressing). Pretty, but not monumental. Well preserved, because there's little development.

Atlantic Canada and New England have a lots of places like this. I think Charlottetown, Lunenburg, and St. John's fall into a similar category, for example. Downtown Halifax is actually a pretty unique environment because its modern buildings are paired with Atlantic-style buildings and older heritage buildings than most points farther west. Whether or not it's better than other towns in the region is a matter of opinion, I guess.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

It's quite telling isn't it? Although here in Calgary - the City Manager (equivalent role) only attends certain parts of the meeting. So each month there is the regular meeting of council and then a combined meeting of council; which includes land use public hearings. When the meeting moves from the overall agenda (which involves any of the 8 department General Manager's) - the City Manager remains in his place.

If it's a combined meeting and they move into the public hearing; the City Manager leaves and the General Manager for Planning, Development & Assessment (Rollin - my GM) sits in his place to run the public hearing. The GM of transportation will usually stay in his seat. Our City Council chamber has dedicated row of seats in front of council for the 8 general managers; they don't sit out in the gallery with the public.

The City Manager also leaves his space when the budget is going on and the Chief Financial Officer of the City sits in his place to run the budget meetings. The City Manager only returns once the public hearing/budget debates are over and the meeting returns back to the full agenda (involving all the GMs) or the end of the budget meeting is done to present final comment on the proposed budget and answer questions during deliberation. Budget generally takes 3-5 days.

Since we have a new City Manager; he may try to shake things up and change the process somewhat but we haven't had a public hearing with him in his role yet so hard to tell. We will see on the 8th of September. But our City Manager doesn't respond to things unless the General Managers can't come up with something. That seems to be the way it works in Edmonton too - but still oversee the meeting.

HRM Council meetings, and Committee of the Whole are broadcast live on cable TV and and streaming on the internet. The video is available at any time through the page listing the meetings.
The Toronto city manager has announced his retirement and the Deputy will be the fill in until a new one is hired. Butts may apply for either position and then he won't have a weekly commute to Halifax, as a former senior employee the Toronto councillors know him.

[curnhalio]

Originally Posted by Colin May

HRM Council meetings, and Committee of the Whole are broadcast live on cable TV and and streaming on the internet. The video is available at any time through the page listing the meetings.
The Toronto city manager has announced his retirement and the Deputy will be the fill in until a new one is hired. Butts may apply for either position and then he won't have a weekly commute to Halifax, as a former senior employee the Toronto councillors know him.

I sure hope he does. It would be nice to have our city run by someone who actually lives here again.

As a side note, I wish this city would stop running to someone from Toronto every time we want to know how to do something.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

As a side note, I wish this city would stop running to someone from Toronto every time we want to know how to do something.

It's all part of the "best practice!" foolishness, and using a headhunting firm that can bill more fees by doing a national search.

If Butts leaves it is time to roll back the salary scale for this job. Paying a CAO over 300K means he makes more than anyone who works for the province, and puts unneeded upward pressure on the salaries of all his direct reports, etc.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Doesn't look very professional when a $300,000 a year CAO sits through council meetings chewing gum.

Ah, Colin, back in the day they'd all be smoking cigars or cigarettes in the meeting. Orange is the new black, and gum is the new cigarette.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Ah, Colin, back in the day they'd all be smoking cigars or cigarettes in the meeting. Orange is the new black, and gum is the new cigarette.

Yup. I'm more worried about someone's work performance than whether they like Dentyne.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

My previous post was meant to be a response specifically to the comment about Portland (ME) being more impressive way back when. I don't think that's true, outside of maybe a brief period in the early 1900's. Aside from that period it was probably the opposite.

The more interesting general observation is that, to some degree, there's a trade-off between moving forward and preserving a snapshot in time. I think more buildings could have been preserved in Halifax without much downside, but I don't think it's true in general that the city would be better off if we could turn back the clock and replace even some of the plainer highrises with old brick and wood Victorians. Park Vic for example is not exactly architecturally stunning but it must add a lot of vibrancy to its neighbourhood. We've been talking about the Roy Building, but it's not clear yet what exactly the replacement will be like. It's possible it will be a lot nicer and it will definitely have more usable space and add density.



Atlantic Canada and New England have a lots of places like this. I think Charlottetown, Lunenburg, and St. John's fall into a similar category, for example. Downtown Halifax is actually a pretty unique environment because its modern buildings are paired with Atlantic-style buildings and older heritage buildings than most points farther west. Whether or not it's better than other towns in the region is a matter of opinion, I guess.

Sorry, I shouldn't actually have quoted you in my response - was intending to address the general direction of the responding posts and was reading yours when I posted.

The point I wanted to make, actually, is that we can't go back in history to change what has been done, but we can now choose to try to preserve what we have left.

In my opinion it's a shame to rip down a building built over 100 years ago with the excuse that it can't be saved. Seeing what Portland has done has reinforced the idea that with some effort the Roy could have been saved. Surely, the development that will be going in there will be significant and attractive, however it could have been built on any number of vacant lots still dotting the downtown.

There will not be any more buildings built like The Roy. Not to mention that this section of Barrington is supposed to be some kind of heritage district - what a joke that is. Let's preserve the district by ripping down or gutting out whatever centenarian buildings remain there as long as some faux-heritage façade is built in its place so we can still call it 'heritage'. Just my humble opinion but it seems that this could be managed much better than it is now.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I had a similar reaction after visiting Portland—it's brickier in general, but there are strong similarities: east-coast port cities on a peninsula, with inner residential areas in the New England/Maritimes wooden vernacular, and a brick-and-stone downtown.

I suspect Portland was more impressive to begin with (as American cities tend to be—see Chicago vs. Toronto, or Seattle vs. Vancouver) but certainly, there is a sense of an alternative-universe Halifax.

But, Halifax serves as the commercial hub of our region, akin to Boston (on a much smaller scale). So that's a lot more development pressure than Portland would've seen. Portland is probably still so intact thanks to preservation by neglect for much of the 20th century—if Saint John ever revitalizes Uptown, it might be a better analogue to Portland, as a regional second city with a better historic vibe.

BUT: I agree that the demolition of the Roy was kind of messed up. It wasn't a great building, and it's done with now, but it's very rare to see structures of that age and size knocked down anymore. The fact that there are so many other structures either in precarious shape or immediately endangered—Khyber, Green Lantern, Elmwood Hotel, Dennis Building—really speaks to how poorly we perform on this front. We're not just lagging behind Portland; we're lagging behind the rest of Canada.

More upsetting is that city council just rubber-stamps every drastic facadism/demolition/major alteration that comes their way. And if they didn't, there'd be a massive hue and cry about anti-development Halifax and young people leaving and sacrificing our future to our heritage and blah blah blah. It's really a moronic civic discussion we have about this stuff, and it's handicapping us from greatness in our built environment.

Excellent post!

Sorry I didn't address it sooner, but I lost it in the shuffle.

[Ziobrop]

tieing down the Vogue Building
photos from http://theroy.builthalifax.ca/
Drill

Insert Tieback


then Grout, tension, and bolt.

also heard starfish is trying to buy the little Mysteries building, current owner apparently doubled his price.