The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Vancouver will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to transit due to the city being very decentralized in terms of employment.

Vancouver charted their own fate, as it has always been part of the their plan to decentralize employment, with the idea that people would live and work a 5 minute bus ride from their jobs in the suburbs, and choose to take the bus. Except it does not work that way.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Is that true though? Many in Calgary consider the huge employment downtown a disadvantage sometimes as the transit system tends to be a commuter system where getting from one side of the city to another seems more an afterthought, vs getting to and from the core from the burbs.

It should be noted that the downtown employment levels in Calgary, while impressive for North America, are still not as high as people think.
Only about 20% of jobs are in downtown Calgary.
If you go any lower, you bring yourself into the American category, with their anemic downtowns.

The issue of crosstown travel in Calgary is being addressed with the long term plan. But the truth is, you just don't get the ridership numbers with crosstown travel, as you do with downtown travel, for a number of reasons.

[WhipperSnapper]

20% of jobs are downtown? Is think another of your half truths? It's possible 20 percent of all jobs are downtown however, no one expects warehousing to be downtown either. The idea also supports a core suurounded by bedroom communities. One would have hoped you would have moved past your 1950s planning with express transit instead of highways.

[Chadillaccc]

I am not sure what the working-age population of Calgary is, but I do know that as of 2012, 120 000 people worked in downtown Calgary.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I am not sure what the working-age population of Calgary is, but I do know that as of 2012, 120 000 people worked in downtown Calgary.

According to Stats Can here there's 840k in the work force and 796k employed. If there's 120k jobs in the downtown that's ~15%.

[Allan83]

Here’s a reference to 350,000 people working “downtown”. I’m guessing that the 120,000 number, or whatever it is now in 2014, is for the CBD while the 350,000 is for the inner city? This would be about 40%, which is also a number I've heard before for "downtown".
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Downto...astructure+needs+work/9955072/story.html

[MalcolmTucker]

There is a definitive data source on this for Calgary[page 14]. 170,800 downtown (26%), an additional 95,500 in the inner city (15%) in 2011.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

20% of jobs are downtown? Is think another of your half truths? It's possible 20 percent of all jobs are downtown however, no one expects warehousing to be downtown either. The idea also supports a core suurounded by bedroom communities. One would have hoped you would have moved past your 1950s planning with express transit instead of highways.

I was stating that stat, because people act like all jobs are downtown, when in fact the percentages are not as high as people may think.

We tend to get people calling for decentralization as a way to fix transportation issues, because they think everyone is going downtown everyday to work. When in fact our downtowns do not need more dispersion, but in fact need more jobs and activities back downtown. This is especially important for transit as well.

And in terms of your 1950s comment. I think the past 50 years have shown us that decentralization is not working.

[vid]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Last night for the first time in a while I experienced just what a disastrous and dangerous situation the lack of public transit in St. John's can be.

We all went out to Velvet on McMurdo's Lane for jeddy1989's birthday, and after the bar closed at 3 a.m. we went to George Street just so the girl staying with us from Ireland to see it.

George Street was still packed - and Allure (which has the dance floor up against the windows facing George Street, which are open to the street - was still open, music pounding.

The street was absolutely packed - as busy as I've ever seen it on a normal Saturday with no special events. Huge lines outside every chip truck, every pizza place. Jugglers, various other buskers. Lots of sexy girls in high heels sitting on the curbs.

And hundreds upon hundreds of people waiting for a cab. There were dozens driving around, all full. Everyone was standing in the street. People spread out to New Gower, Duckworth, Water, Harbour, Waldegrave, and even Cavendish standing in large groups waiting for a cab.

We waited an hour in several spots before finally decided to just walk home.

We saw one guy being forced by the RNC to walk a straight line on the sidewalk, and several other people pulled over still sitting in their cars.

It's a recipe for drinking and driving.

There is no option for people to get home other than a cab, and there aren't enough to handle the end-of-night rush.

It's really pathetic. They should at least run the Trolley line a few times at 3 a.m. on weekend nights.

At 2:30am in Thunder Bay, last call forces the nearly 2,000 bar patrons out onto the street, in a city where bus service ends just after 12:30am and cab companies run the legal minimum required to renew their licences the next year. The large number of people forced into the street at one time, combined with the lack of cabs and transit, usually results not just in our highest-per-capita in Ontario drinking and driving rate, but also in a very high rate of violent crime at that period of the night. (We also plan our police shifts so that less of them are working at that time, so only a few on duty cops have to deal with the crowd.)

Last time I went to the bar, I called for a cab every five minutes, to both companies. I reached home (an hour long walk) without getting through once.

Every cent the province and MADD spend on anti-drinking and driving initiatives is wasted here when this is the reality. And for people who do leave their cars downtown because they were too drunk to drive, they get ticketed or towed the next morning.

Our transit system can't even get drivers to work holidays anymore, the union blocks virtually every attempt to improve service. I have a feeling that Thunder Bay's revamped transit system has been delayed by two years so far because the Union is opposing it, as the new network has no "quiet" routes. We have express buses, but they don't advertise it because they can only run the route when they have drivers available, and that isn't very often because the union won't allow part time drivers.

[SignalHillHiker]

We have an unusually high rate of driving under the influence as well.

The one good thing is the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary always has a strong presence on George Street for closing.

Police cars are allowed onto George Street (which is pedestrian-only except for a few hours during the day for deliveries). There had to be at least a half dozen there, most parked with the constables standing outside socializing with everyone.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but it's always the hottest constables there as well - male or female.

They do a really good job of interacting with people, posing for pictures, checking on drunk women who are alone/with a single male, and so on.

They also usually have a strong presence on Duckworth Street, which is where most people park when they go to George for the night.

There, they often remain in their cars, lights flashing, as a deterrent.

It sucks, though, what primitive public transit can do to a city.

[miketoronto]

You guys should write the transit agency and tell them that they should consider late night transit service.
Even if they charged a special fare, it would probably be well used.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I was stating that stat, because people act like all jobs are downtown, when in fact the percentages are not as high as people may think.

We tend to get people calling for decentralization as a way to fix transportation issues, because they think everyone is going downtown everyday to work. When in fact our downtowns do not need more dispersion, but in fact need more jobs and activities back downtown. This is especially important for transit as well.

And in terms of your 1950s comment. I think the past 50 years have shown us that decentralization is not working.

I disagree. Poor planning and funding of car focused ideals has made decentralization less successful but, a city like Toronto would collapse under its own weight without it.

[Innsertnamehere]

Couple things in Toronto Transit today:

Apparently the second phase of the VIVA BRT on highway 7 in Markham has opened this week, though the official ceremony and full completion is still a month or two away.

Also, GO transit issued a $50 million tender for the detailed design of the Davenport grade seperation (rail to rail) on the Barrie line, a new station at St. Clair, as well as the implementation of a second track on the line to allow for AD2W service. This is the first feature we have seen from the provincial funding passed a month ago, its amazing to see it happening so quickly. This is estimated to be a roughly $600 million dollar project in total.

REQUEST TO QUALIFY AND QUOTE (RQQ-C1-14-055) from Consultants closes 15:00 September 11, 2014 at the owner. The owner is seeking proposals from engineering services for the provision of engineering services for the completion Phase One: feasibility studies and preliminary design and Phase Two: detailed design and preparation of construction project documents; assistance with Procurement and evaluation; construction supervision, contract administration, testing and commissioning, post construction services and management of the services. Schedules for design, tender and construction will be finalized upon award.
Project: proposed expansion of existing GO Transit rail service to Barrie including platform expansion and addition of new lines. This project will include construction of a new station at St Clair. The Allandale Station will be followed under report number 9081204.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I disagree. Poor planning and funding of car focused ideals has made decentralization less successful but, a city like Toronto would collapse under its own weight without it.

Even in the glory days of the 1950s downtowns were not the only employment area.

You are right about the poor planning. Toronto had pretty good planning, where most office development until the 1990's that was not built downtown, was at least built on the subway network.
However even on rapid transit, non-downtown offices still have much higher car usage rates.

Canadian downtowns are not as dominant as they could be, and I do not think Canadian cities are in any situation where decentralization is required to handle crowding issues . If anything, we need more life back downtown in terms of employment.

One can also look to places like London, where they are building Crossrail, and they are not shy to say it is to connect people to central London, and allow people to get to the city centre faster to work and enjoy all the city centre has to offer. When I was in London, they had signs up promoting how you be within 45 minutes of all Central London has to offer once Crossrail opens. The scheme is also part of a plan to continue to support extensive growth of employment in Central London.

But as I said. Canadian downtowns are not crowded and the transit is not crowded. And where there is crowding, it is because our transit has not kept up with development. It is not because we have too much development downtown.

Take Calgary for example. The trains may be full. But they are also only operating every 4-6 minutes at rush hour. Toronto's trains are full. But it is not because of downtown. It is because we have not expanded capacity in decades.

Just for reference and to show how Canadian cities really do not have an overdevelopment problem in our downtowns. I am reading a book on transit planning, and one of the stats is how over 60% of metropolitan jobs in Munich, Germany are in the city centre.

[SignalHillHiker]

Good idea, Mike. Done. Sent to the councillor who is a member here.

[miketoronto]

Just to drive home the important important impact downtowns have on transit usage rates, here are some quotes from the book I am reading:

The Transit Metropolis:

"One of the greatest accomplishments of the TTC system has been in strengthening the central business district (CBD). A strong CBD has in turn spawned high ridership levels - about 65% all trips entering the CBD."

"Experiences also show that jobs-housing balance and self-containment are not essential in reducing automobile dependence. In fact, when compared to British new towns, there appears to be an inverse relationship between self containment and transit/non auto commuting. While British new towns are far more balanced and self-contained than their Swedish counterparts, they are also more auto dependent."

In closing, Stockholm's built form - a strong, preeminent regional core orbited by transit villages - deserves much of the credit for low automobile dependance. "

"Despite the very best intentions of integrating urban development and rail transit, Copenhagen's Finger Plan and radial rail investments had failed to strengthen the central city as a base of employment. Indeed the S-Train has quite likely helped to spur decentralization. The shift of jobs to the suburbs is reflected in commuting statistics. From 1980 to 1990, the number of suburb-to-suburb work trips within the region rose by 47 percent, whereas radial commutes fell by 3 percent. With trip origins and destinations increasingly scattered in all directions, transit's ridership has suffered. Public transit trips in Greater Copenhangen fell from 310 million in 1982 to 242 million in 1992. "

[vid]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

You guys should write the transit agency and tell them that they should consider late night transit service.
Even if they charged a special fare, it would probably be well used.

The people in charge of Thunder Bay Transit said that they want to extend transit service on Friday and Saturday nights, but they don't have the funding or personnel to do it. City council doesn't have too many concerns about it, other than the fact that transit system costs have been going up regularly while provincial subsidies stay roughly the same.

The ball is basically in the province's court, and as far as they're concerned, public transit outside of the GTA and Ottawa isn't that big of a concern.

That's the problem with sharing a province with Toronto. It's great to have such a large city so easily accessible (just a 1 hour, $250 plane flight away) but at the same time, the needs of that region are so different from ours, that our needs get totally ignored. We have to fit our square peg into the round hole the province is providing and it's getting to a point where we just can't make it work anymore. Kathleen Wynne is significantly more responsive than Dalton McGuinty ever was, but 18 months in we're getting little more than talk right now. We don't want to have to wait until 2018 to see progress here, when places like Saskatoon are moving far ahead of us on the exact same issues.

[Marty_Mcfly]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Good idea, Mike. Done. Sent to the councillor who is a member here.

If we could find a way to keep the drunkards from puking on the bus I'd be so down for post downtown transit back up to my neighbourhood

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by vid

At 2:30am in Thunder Bay, last call forces the nearly 2,000 bar patrons out onto the street, in a city where bus service ends just after 12:30am and cab companies run the legal minimum required to renew their licences the next year. The large number of people forced into the street at one time, combined with the lack of cabs and transit, usually results not just in our highest-per-capita in Ontario drinking and driving rate, but also in a very high rate of violent crime at that period of the night.

Huh. I wonder if this is the same reason (lack of transit/cabs) that leads to PEI having the highest DUI rate in Canada.

Edit: [DUI rate or drink/drive related incidents? It led the country in one of these stats]

[Marty_Mcfly]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Huh. I wonder if this is the same reason (lack of transit/cabs) that leads to PEI having the highest DUI rate in Canada.

Edit: [DUI rate or drink/drive related incidents? It led the country in one of these stats]

When I lived there, some cabbies would refuse to take you if you were headed anywhere that wasn't centre city or Stratford. They'd come to pick you up no problem, but bringing you back at 2 am was a huge problem for them. I think the same thing is happening in Halifax now, with some cabbies not wanting to cross over into Dartmouth late at night because they find it hard to get a fare back into Halifax at those hours.