O-Train Line 2 [Stage 1 | Bayview to Greenboro] | In Service

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Airports have been known to raise a stink about transit connections. In Toronto, the government has to pay the airport $1.80 for every passenger who will take the Union Pearson Express to compensate the airport for anticipated loss of parking revenue. The airport refused to let the government run trains to the terminal without that agreement.

I don't know who paid for the UPX (Queen's Park?), but in Vancouver, the airport contributed 300 million of the roughly 2 billion dollar cost of the Canada Line.

Here in Ottawa, the MC Airport requested an airport link and are expecting to pay a certain amount of any rail connection, though no where near 300 million I'm sure.

I think that Toronto's situation reflects the fact that despite all the transit options and high ridership levels, it is still very car oriented. Plus Queen's Park are suckers and will dish out any amount of cash to make Toronto look good. Pearson International took advantage of that.

[Richard Eade]

I find it a bit myopic when some people talk about “the airport” being too small to justify rail service. Sure the ½ dozen, or so, people who get off a # 97 bus at the airport might not justify a train spur, but that is looking only at the airport stop; what about other developments in the area? (Although if every # 97 bus had six people getting off/on at the airport, it would likely be a busier stop than some along the Confederation line.)

The Airport Authority has said that it wants to develop more of the property around the actual airport; take the EY Centre for example. These stops, peripheral to the airport stop, could offer a considerable boost in ridership along the O-Train line. I believe that that is one of the reasons why the City is proposing to move the spur northwards. (It was originally envisioned to run where a historical spur was, south of Lester.)



Of course, I still say that putting the airport on the main line is the best idea.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I tend to agree, this is typical Ottawa metooism. YOW is 4.5Mish pax airport, which puts it on the same scale as Pisa, Bordeaux or Austin. For those who are budget conscious the 97 provides good service downtown (although it would be better if it were some sort of express bus that made a limited number of stops). For those who are in a rush taxis/limos can get downtown faster than an o-train/confederation combination would be able to, and for those with kids or a lot of luggage in tow they are probably going to want to cab/drive/get dropped off anyway. Maybe at some point of the o-train receives significant upgrades (double tracks, a direct connection downtown, etc) and airport extension might be worth incorporating, but until then it is a vanity project that could draw resources from more sensible projects.

It could serve the EY Centre, though, and can make a hotel/hotels built in the airport complex more feasible and attractive to stay in.

I know some people in Vancouver who take the kids to the airport for fun because it's easy to do on the SkyTrain. They're fascinated by the planes landing and taking off, it's no different from bringing them to a museum or zoo and it's free. They spend a few bucks in the food court and feel the excited ambience of the terminal. The bar at YOW has a good view, I'd go there for a drink if it was easy to get to You could have your next SSP meet up there

[eemy]

I used to do that as a kid all the time in the old terminal.

I just flew through Ottawa on my way to Greenland, and stayed overnight at the Days Inn. It seems that generally speaking the hotels are in the vicinity of the airport, but aren't particularly well connected to anything other than the airport. (the Hilton Garden Inn may be the exception - does the 97 stop near there?)

It would be nice if the hotels could have clustered around the proposed station at Uplands Dr. It would be a convenient connection from the airport (hotels could maybe arrange some deal with OCTranspo whereby people could use the O-Train to travel between the hotels and the terminal), and it would make it far easier for overnight visitors to leave the hotel and visit the rest of the city.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by S-Man

Isn't the taxi union also pushing for steep fare increases at some point this year, thus making Ottawa cabs the priciest in Canada (you know, to go with our priciest-in-Canada transit fare?)

If you can claim that Ottawa has the priciest cab and transit fares, that means you've done the math.

Which city has the second-highest?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think that Toronto's situation reflects the fact that despite all the transit options and high ridership levels, it is still very car oriented. Plus Queen's Park are suckers and will dish out any amount of cash to make Toronto look good. Pearson International took advantage of that.

Toronto, unlike Ottawa, has the advantage of being in Ontario.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Of course, I still say that putting the airport on the main line is the best idea.

But that would involve cutting down trees! Vibrant, nationally-significant trees for all Canadians!

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It could serve the EY Centre, though, and can make a hotel/hotels built in the airport complex more feasible and attractive to stay in.

I know some people in Vancouver who take the kids to the airport for fun because it's easy to do on the SkyTrain. They're fascinated by the planes landing and taking off, it's no different from bringing them to a museum or zoo and it's free. They spend a few bucks in the food court and feel the excited ambience of the terminal. The bar at YOW has a good view, I'd go there for a drink if it was easy to get to You could have your next SSP meet up there

Vancouver would be an expensive place to go to the airport for s***s and giggles. The zone 2 fare is $4 ($2.75 for kids) and there is a $5 surcharge at the airport.

We're talking about spending a significant amount of taxpayer money (and probably diverting funding from other projects). There needs to be a better reason to replace a perfectly functional bus service that runs mostly empty south of Hunt Club with a train service that will have about the same frequency and take about the same amount of time to get to downtown or other major transfer points. Encouraging more people to stay at airport hotels (why is that a policy objective of the city?) facilitating transportation to the EY centre (which is used a few times a month and has a giant parking lot) or encouraging use of the YOW bar do not IMHO justify this sort of cost.

If the airport wants this service to improve the value of their land for development or to enhance the business of their tenants or to improve its own business then they should pay for it.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by S-Man

Isn't the taxi union also pushing for steep fare increases at some point this year, thus making Ottawa cabs the priciest in Canada (you know, to go with our priciest-in-Canada transit fare?)

It's a no brainer to built the O-Train with an airport connection. The only worry on the part of the city should be the route and the cost, not the complaints of the taxi union and its members.

Agreed on the logic of building or not building an air rail link.

I must nitpick though and say that Ottawa does not have the most expensive transit fares in Canada. Among urban transit systems that honour belongs to York Region Transit in Toronto. Commuter systems like GO Transit, the AMT, or the contracted coach transit services in Russell & Rockland, for example, charge more but they serve a different purpose than urban transit systems.

[J.OT13]

Although I definitely see the advantage of having a line to the EY Centre and MC Airport to efficiently move people, spur some development in the area and look good to people visiting the city for leisure and business, I think it's completely pointless if the line doesn't go straight to downtown.

As for the price; the extra cost of the spur/loop would likely be covered by the airport authority, so it's a non-issue, although the cost of conversion and interchange at Bayview...

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Vancouver would be an expensive place to go to the airport for s***s and giggles. The zone 2 fare is $4 ($2.75 for kids) and there is a $5 surcharge at the airport.

That's still a cheap date. I've done it.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Vancouver would be an expensive place to go to the airport for s***s and giggles. The zone 2 fare is $4 ($2.75 for kids) and there is a $5 surcharge at the airport.

We're talking about spending a significant amount of taxpayer money (and probably diverting funding from other projects). There needs to be a better reason to replace a perfectly functional bus service that runs mostly empty south of Hunt Club with a train service that will have about the same frequency and take about the same amount of time to get to downtown or other major transfer points. Encouraging more people to stay at airport hotels (why is that a policy objective of the city?) facilitating transportation to the EY centre (which is used a few times a month and has a giant parking lot) or encouraging use of the YOW bar do not IMHO justify this sort of cost.

If the airport wants this service to improve the value of their land for development or to enhance the business of their tenants or to improve its own business then they should pay for it.

A train would increase ridership dramatically. An additional airport charge may be needed to justify cost wise. A side benefit is it would build support for transit among non-frequent users (whose only ride on LRT would be to the airport).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

A train would increase ridership dramatically. An additional airport charge may be needed to justify cost wise. A side benefit is it would build support for transit among non-frequent users (whose only ride on LRT would be to the airport).

But we're not talking about a theoretical train, we're talking about the o-train which has a number of limitations, including limited service hours (6am-midnight) a wait of up to 16 minutes (assuming half the trains go to the airport and half go to Riverside South), a necessity to stop 8 times (existing stops plus Uplands, South Keys, Walkley and Gladstone), a transfer to a tram at Bayview and an additional ride to one's destination (assuming one's final destination is on the Confederation line, otherwise there are additional bus transfers).

All of this in a context where a network of limited-access parkways link to the airport and where a number of recent or planned road improvements directly improve access to the airport (new Hunt Club interchange, S-A Bridge, widened airport parkway, widened 417, etc).

It is hard to see where a dramatic increase in train use would come from. It is unlikely to be business users who can expense a 15-25 minute cab ride downtown (in theory they could be downtown before the o-train even leaves the station). It is unlikely to be residents who have to transfer onto a bus (because they are probably comfortable using the existing bus service). It might attract some cost-conscious downtown residents (although many of them probably already take the bus) and might attract some tourists if they have a hotel near a transit station, but I think those are pretty small numbers.

As I said earlier, if circumstances change (o-train gets a direct connection to downtown, NCC rips up the parkways, city tolls the airport parkway, etc) then a rail connection to the airport might make more sense but in the mean time it is hard to see a value-added to justify the expense.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

I used to do that as a kid all the time in the old terminal.

I just flew through Ottawa on my way to Greenland, and stayed overnight at the Days Inn. It seems that generally speaking the hotels are in the vicinity of the airport, but aren't particularly well connected to anything other than the airport. (the Hilton Garden Inn may be the exception - does the 97 stop near there?)

It would be nice if the hotels could have clustered around the proposed station at Uplands Dr. It would be a convenient connection from the airport (hotels could maybe arrange some deal with OCTranspo whereby people could use the O-Train to travel between the hotels and the terminal), and it would make it far easier for overnight visitors to leave the hotel and visit the rest of the city.

There is a 97 stop on the Airport Parkway and the off-ramp for Alert. Otherwise the Hilton Airport offers a Free shuttle service to and from the hotel to the airport.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But we're not talking about a theoretical train, we're talking about the o-train which has a number of limitations, including limited service hours (6am-midnight) a wait of up to 16 minutes (assuming half the trains go to the airport and half go to Riverside South), a necessity to stop 8 times (existing stops plus Uplands, South Keys, Walkley and Gladstone), a transfer to a tram at Bayview and an additional ride to one's destination (assuming one's final destination is on the Confederation line, otherwise there are additional bus transfers).

All of this in a context where a network of limited-access parkways link to the airport and where a number of recent or planned road improvements directly improve access to the airport (new Hunt Club interchange, S-A Bridge, widened airport parkway, widened 417, etc).

It is hard to see where a dramatic increase in train use would come from. It is unlikely to be business users who can expense a 15-25 minute cab ride downtown (in theory they could be downtown before the o-train even leaves the station). It is unlikely to be residents who have to transfer onto a bus (because they are probably comfortable using the existing bus service). It might attract some cost-conscious downtown residents (although many of them probably already take the bus) and might attract some tourists if they have a hotel near a transit station, but I think those are pretty small numbers.

As I said earlier, if circumstances change (o-train gets a direct connection to downtown, NCC rips up the parkways, city tolls the airport parkway, etc) then a rail connection to the airport might make more sense but in the mean time it is hard to see a value-added to justify the expense.

You make some good points and it certainly won't be ideal. but IMHO the key is that the large student and young urban population who live along the O/Train and Confederation lines will essentially be able to take the “subway” to the airport. Agree that business people won’t do it unless forced to but maybe Centretown civil servants will be directed to take transit for their airport runs.

[1overcosc]

I honestly don't like the idea of splitting up the O-Train.

My preference is to build O-Train to the airport, and then extend the Southeast Transitway to Riverside South instead. That would have the advantage of allowing continuous service between South Keys & Riverside South/Barrhaven instead of an awkward transfer in the middle of nowhere at Bowesville.

My service plan for the south end:
-O-Train to Airport
-97 removed from the Airport and extended south to Riverside South & Barrhaven, going through Barrhaven TC and terminating at the Fallowfield & 416 business park.
-99 along Spratt renumbered as a local route that would feed into the 97 at Limebank or Bowesville to the east, and then going north along Woodroffe to Fallowfield and then terminating at Baseline, replacing the 94 through that part of Barrhaven
-94 removed from Barrhaven; post-LRT it would become a South Orleans only route
-95 extended south from Barrhaven TC along the Greenbank extension

Yes it means removing the O-Train service from Riverside South, but honestly the BRT can serve that area better, because:
1) No forced transfer at Bowesville
2) Frequency can grow beyond 8 minutes (likely needed at peak) if necessary without any new work
3) Service can begin immediately and the BRT can be built in chunks as congestion necessitates

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I honestly don't like the idea of splitting up the O-Train.

My preference is to build O-Train to the airport, and then extend the Southeast Transitway to Riverside South instead. That would have the advantage of allowing continuous service between South Keys & Riverside South/Barrhaven instead of an awkward transfer in the middle of nowhere at Bowesville.

My service plan for the south end:
-O-Train to Airport
-97 removed from the Airport and extended south to Riverside South & Barrhaven, going through Barrhaven TC and terminating at the Fallowfield & 416 business park.
-99 along Spratt renumbered as a local route that would feed into the 97 at Limebank or Bowesville to the east, and then going north along Woodroffe to Fallowfield and then terminating at Baseline, replacing the 94 through that part of Barrhaven
-94 removed from Barrhaven; post-LRT it would become a South Orleans only route
-95 extended south from Barrhaven TC along the Greenbank extension

Yes it means removing the O-Train service from Riverside South, but honestly the BRT can serve that area better, because:
1) No forced transfer at Bowesville
2) Frequency can grow beyond 8 minutes (likely needed at peak) if necessary without any new work
3) Service can begin immediately and the BRT can be built in chunks as congestion necessitates

This all makes sense to me and seems like a very good plan. I guess that means it will never happen.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But we're not talking about a theoretical train, we're talking about the o-train which has a number of limitations, including limited service hours (6am-midnight) a wait of up to 16 minutes (assuming half the trains go to the airport and half go to Riverside South), a necessity to stop 8 times (existing stops plus Uplands, South Keys, Walkley and Gladstone), a transfer to a tram at Bayview and an additional ride to one's destination (assuming one's final destination is on the Confederation line, otherwise there are additional bus transfers).

All of this in a context where a network of limited-access parkways link to the airport and where a number of recent or planned road improvements directly improve access to the airport (new Hunt Club interchange, S-A Bridge, widened airport parkway, widened 417, etc).

It is hard to see where a dramatic increase in train use would come from. It is unlikely to be business users who can expense a 15-25 minute cab ride downtown (in theory they could be downtown before the o-train even leaves the station). It is unlikely to be residents who have to transfer onto a bus (because they are probably comfortable using the existing bus service). It might attract some cost-conscious downtown residents (although many of them probably already take the bus) and might attract some tourists if they have a hotel near a transit station, but I think those are pretty small numbers.

As I said earlier, if circumstances change (o-train gets a direct connection to downtown, NCC rips up the parkways, city tolls the airport parkway, etc) then a rail connection to the airport might make more sense but in the mean time it is hard to see a value-added to justify the expense.

But you don't take parking into account: even parking for a half hour to pick up someone is expensive and long-term parking is arguably prohibitively so. Not to mention the congestion on those 'limited access parkways'. I'm actually leaving soon to go pick up my sister from the airport and I'm planning on arriving almost an hour early to avoid the tie-ups.

Lugging your bags around in a bus just isn't fun. Boarding isn't level, you have to hold on to your luggage as it swings back and forth and side to side with every jerk, stop and turn and there just isn't much space. Then there is the stigma which, for better or for worse, exists, especially for visitors from the States.

A train, even with all of its own limitations, is much more enticing both in terms of perception, but also in terms of comfort. People will still take cabs or get picked up, but it'll be at South Keys, Carling, Bayview, etc. That means fewer cars on Bronson and the Parkway, cheaper cab fares, more convenient pick ups/drop offs and a modern, attractive gateway to Ottawa more fitting for a first-world, 21st century capital.

And hey, why don't we toll the Airport Parkway once the O-Train is extended?

[1overcosc]

You're damn right about short-term parking. Picking someone up from the airport can cost a fortune... last time I travelled my friend paid $8 to pick me up! He's nice and refused to let me pay, but I digress.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

You're damn right about short-term parking. Picking someone up from the airport can cost a fortune... last time I travelled my friend paid $8 to pick me up! He's nice and refused to let me pay, but I digress.

They don’t advertise it but the first 15 minutes in the short term lot is free. Get the arriving passenger to call you when they are get to baggage claim. Meet them there and help them with luggage and swipe the ticket next to the baggage claim. I think you get another 10 or 15 minutes to actually exit so the total free time is close to 30 minutes.