The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The difference in London, as VIce pointed out, is that cheaper rail alternatives exist (Heathrow Connect and the Piccadilly line for Heathrow and Thameslink for Gatwick).

I think it is better to start with the UPX line, because it will recover a great deal of it's cost through fares, and is a dedicated airport line. However, I have no doubt that the eglinton crosstown will eventually get extended to the airport.

[Innsertnamehere]

Most likely regular connection will be GO RER, with the airport people mover extended to the rail corridor to meet the HSR and GO RER services.

[caltrane74]

Yes, that actually makes more sense, and will not cost a lot either.

Win! Win!

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Most likely regular connection will be GO RER, with the airport people mover extended to the rail corridor to meet the HSR and GO RER services.

I can honestly see the UPX & HSR being combined into a single service, with the Pearson spur becoming an extension of the people mover. To deal with the fact that UPX will have higher frequency than the HSR, simply put extra trains that only do the Union-Pearson segment, ie. from Union, HSR departures alternate between Pearson-only, and Pearson-Kitchener-London departures.

[Innsertnamehere]

You run into capacity issues doing that, it isn't good to have half of your HSR passengers getting off at the airport and running half empty trains over the rest of the line. I would just prefer that Malton GO get a nice upgrade with a people mover extension and have the HSR connect there. Plus you cut probably 5 minutes off the run time by not forcing HSR to use the spur. There is also the issue of platform length for the UPX which will likely be far below that of what is required for HSR. (Likely similar to a regular GO train today, around 250 metres)

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Let's say it's the worst case scenario and it costs $30. A cab to the airport from downtown is $60. UPX takes 25 minutes from Union. Cab rides takes an hour and can be much longer if traffic is bad.

Among solo travellers--which is who this line is targeting--I don't see why it won't be successful. People travelling in groups, though, aren't really going to be attracted to the service, unless of course they're business travellers who are expensing it. Which there is no shortage of in Toronto's financial district.

A more reasonable fare would be $15-$20, that's generally around what Airport Express trains cost in most other major cities (for example, the Gatwick Express in London is 16 pounds). At that rate, it would become competitive among groups of 2 & 3.

In any case, UPX is likely going to get merged in with the London-Toronto HSR.

Also, note that the UPX construction resulted in the grade separation of the Georgetown subdivision. Very useful infrastructure for future use.

There's legitimate competition from YTZ for business travel especially short, same day trips and I just don't see UPX cutting in on that market. I have no doubt that it won't be a popular choice for travellers between downtown and the airport.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

There's legitimate competition from YTZ for business travel especially short, same day trips and I just don't see UPX cutting in on that market. I have no doubt that it won't be a popular choice for travellers between downtown and the airport.

This is kinda confusing.. so the UPX line WILL be a popular choice for commuters from downtown to the Malton Airport (YYZ)? But the UPX WILL NOT cut into the popularity of the island airport (YTZ)?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

This is kinda confusing.. so the UPX line WILL be a popular choice for commuters from downtown to the Malton Airport (YYZ)? But the UPX WILL NOT cut into the popularity of the island airport (YTZ)?

That sounds about right.

[ssiguy]

Toronto is, as always, going about it ass backwards. Most cities build regular rapid transit to their airports first and then add more expensive express lines. Toronto has decided that the most people who go the airport everyday {meaning the thousands of employees and budget travellers} have the honour of waiting for a packed bus so they can crawl thru the city hyperventilating until they finally get to transfer on to a packed subway.

This is a tourist train paid for by the long suffering tax payers of Ontario.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Toronto is, as always, going about it ass backwards. Most cities build regular rapid transit to their airports first and then add more expensive express lines. Toronto has decided that the most people who go the airport everyday {meaning the thousands of employees and budget travellers} have the honour of waiting for a packed bus so they can crawl thru the city hyperventilating until they finally get to transfer on to a packed subway.
.

Or, they can just pay the $25 bucks and ride the comfortable express train. A train which will likely cover its operation cost through the farebox, and therefore not become a burden on Ontario Taxpayers.


If you are so concerned about Ontario taxpayers what is the sense in a regional train running to the airport 90% empty? Expansion of the people mover to connect with the planned Express Regional Rail system recently ok'd by the goverment would make more sense than even the expansion of the crosstown LRT line.

[Innsertnamehere]

The airport express bus uses the 427, its not exactly slow. Its exactly that, an express bus.

The crosstown lrt would have taken just as long as the current setup (the bus), so I find it quite pointless. The airport is simply too far from downtown for a metro transit connection to make sense like there is in Vancouver.A GO RER connection is what is needed if you have any hope of a reasonable travel time.

Besides, its also not exactly unheard of to have premium service trains for people coming from the airport.. They are in many places where they are the only transit connection to the airport.

But who am I kidding? You won't read this post (or at least ignore it) and make the same bogus claims again in two weeks anyway.

[WhipperSnapper]

What a trollish post.

First saying it's ass backwards to build an express airport train and then complaining about the subway.

I've taken and know a lot of people that have taken the subway and airport rocket. It's ridiculous cheap and a breeze as long as it isn't rush hour. Compared to many places in Europe where accessibility is grandfathered steep staircases to climb to reach a train into a city for ten times the cost.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

This is kinda confusing.. so the UPX line WILL be a popular choice for commuters from downtown to the Malton Airport (YYZ)? But the UPX WILL NOT cut into the popularity of the island airport (YTZ)?

Things called tourists and vacationers. I thought you're into all the condo and hotel towers.

[kwoldtimer]

Construction of the K-W Ion LRT is scheduled to begin on August 21st.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I thought you're into all the condo and hotel towers.

I am, but everytime I post about that you complain. So I thought I would come here and post about shiny new trains, but gosh darn-it, you found me!!!

arrrghh!!

[eemy]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Construction of the K-W Ion LRT is scheduled to begin on August 21st.

You could argue that it has been under construction for awhile, or at least they have been preparing for construction (Weber, demolition etc.).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

You could argue that it has been under construction for awhile, or at least they have been preparing for construction (Weber, demolition etc.).

True, the prep work and utility relocation has been going all for a while now. Downtown is looking shabby (shabbier?) with all the patches in the streets and sidewalks. The price of progress, I guess.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

I am, but everytime I post about that you complain. So I thought I would come here and post about shiny new trains, but gosh darn-it, you found me!!!

arrrghh!!

Lol....You responded to my post and I clarified. Thousands of people living in those condo towers or occupying hotel rooms will make the line a success regardless if the express train doesn't lure short term business travel away from the island airport.

[Coldrsx]

SE LRT P3

Valley Line P3 short list selected
Three teams invited to participate in RFP process

"The City of Edmonton has shortlisted three teams to participate in the next phase of the Valley Line LRT project between Mill Woods and downtown Edmonton.

Five teams from the private sector responded to the City’s Request for Qualifications (RFQ) released in April; three of those teams have been invited to reply to a Request for Proposals (RFP) and submit a bid to design, build, operate, maintain, and partially finance the Valley Line:

- Trans Ed Partners
- Moving YEG
- River City Transit
*Individual team members listed on backgrounder, see attached."

MovingYEG includes:
ACS Infrastructure Canada Inc., HOCHTIEF PPP Solutions North America, Inc., Meridiam Valley Line LRT ULC, Keolis S.A., Aecon Concessions, a Division of Aecon Construction Group Inc., Dragados Canada Inc., Flatiron Constructors Canada Limited, Aecon Infrastructure Management Inc., Keolis Canada Inc., Stantec Consulting Ltd., MMM Group Limited

River City Transit includes:
SNC-Lavalin Capital Inc., SNC-Lavalin Constructors (Paci?c) Inc., SNC-Lavalin Operations 8: Maintenance Inc., Kiewit Canada Development Corp, Kiewit Management Co, ALSTOM Transport Canada Inc., ALSTOM Transport SA

TransEd Partners includes:
Bechtel Canada Company, Bechtel Development Company, Fengate Capital Management Ltd., EllisDon Capital, EllisDon Civil, EllisDon Facility Services, Veolia Transportation, Inc., IBI Group, Bombardier Transportation Canada, Inc., Arup Canada Inc., American Bridge Canada Company

The RFP phase will last 12-15 months, during which each of the shortlisted teams will prepare a design proposal that meets all the criteria the City has established over several years in consultation with the citizens of Edmonton. Final proposals are expected in fall 2015 with the successful team selected by the end of 2015. Major construction is expected to begin in 2016 and continue until completion in 2020.

The City has retained a team of leading industry experts with considerable experience managing design, construction, financing and managing public-private partnership (P3) projects to advise throughout the procurement phase.

The total capital cost for the Valley Line LRT is $1.8 billion. The City of Edmonton has committed $800-million, the government of Alberta will help finance up to $600 million, and the Government of Canada is contributing $400 million.

http://www.mailoutinteractive.com/Industry/View.aspx?id=599296&q=768820104&qz=9d0386

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Or, they can just pay the $25 bucks and ride the comfortable express train. A train which will likely cover its operation cost through the farebox, and therefore not become a burden on Ontario Taxpayers.


If you are so concerned about Ontario taxpayers what is the sense in a regional train running to the airport 90% empty? Expansion of the people mover to connect with the planned Express Regional Rail system recently ok'd by the goverment would make more sense than even the expansion of the crosstown LRT line.

Even if it covers it operating expenses, it is ALREADY, a tax burden on Ontarians. This was built with strictly government money.

Is $25 much, well it depends. For someone off to a months long vacation then no. For someone going a relatively short didtance then yes as that's at least $57 return just to get to the airport and if you are only going to Montreal, New York, Chicago, or Thunder Bay then that's quite a hike onto your fare.

If you are like the thousands who work at the airport everyday, this is absurdly expensive. If you are making minimum wage in Ontario, you have just lost 4 hours work per day. The people who can most afford to take a cab are getting a subsidy and infrastructure paid by the taxpayers while the people who can't afford it still have to pay for it thru their taxes but draw no benefit at all.