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  #3401  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 7:12 PM
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I have been arguing this case for ages:

https://medium.com/p/9316abbd5735

*Link to article on the issue of how we discuss bicyclists.

Last edited by city-dweller; Jul 10, 2014 at 7:13 PM. Reason: clarify
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  #3402  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 7:55 PM
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^^^^^ That's a good article that makes a lot of sense.

My experience is that people break the laws in order of flexibility, or in inverse order of potential harm they can cause others. What I mean is that the worst offenders are:

1. Pedestrians. They can literally go anywhere, and often ignore red lights, legal crossings, etc. Risk? High Consequence? Only to themselves.

2. Cyclists. Have more flexibility than cars, but less than pedestrians. They will roll through a light or stop sign after slowing and looking around. Risk? Medium Consequence? They will lose vs a car. Hitting a pedestrian is less dangerous but they could still get injured (like on the Lions Gate, and what prompted the Burrard separated lane)

3. Drivers. Must travel on roads. Roll through stop signs, almost never lights. More cautious than the first 2, generally speaking. Risk? Low - nobody gets a ticket for rolling through a stop really. Consequence? Hitting a cyclist or pedestrian often causes serious injury or death to the person hit, no damage to car driver.

Cyclists get blamed the most for 2 reasons:

1. As in the article, people are drivers and walkers. Those who don't cycle see bike riders as "somebody else who is causing the problem"

2. Cyclists, despite having full protection as a car on a road according to the law, are often squeezed in between pedestrians and cars without a fully separated bike lane, and they are blamed by both for all manner of things.
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  #3404  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2014, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tybuilding View Post
Some much needed improvements for the BC Parkway happening this year.
Really nice to see this work being done. I often use certain sections of the Parkway between Trout Lake and Metrotown, and as one of the older bike routes in the city it's well overdue for some maintenance.

I also like the layout of the new detour PDF a lot better than the old one where they tried to shoehorn the detours in as insets to the whole map.
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  #3405  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2014, 3:18 PM
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I wonder if they had the same problems with horse carriages.

I imagine someone yelling at the stagecoach for slowing down the traffic on the burrard st. bridge.
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  #3406  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2014, 4:26 PM
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Last edited by SFUVancouver; Jul 15, 2014 at 9:28 PM. Reason: I was wrong
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  #3407  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2014, 9:23 PM
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Wasn't Burrard Bridge built in 1930?
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  #3408  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2014, 9:28 PM
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Oops. I was thinking the current Granville Street Bridge, not the Burrard. Mea culpa.
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  #3409  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2014, 11:52 PM
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I'm a walker, driver, or cyclist depending on the day.

And as those three I have a huge problem with many cyclists. Not because they have low morals or break many laws. My beef is that many cyclists pick which set of "rules" they'll follow on a moment-by-moment basis.

Bicyclist are supposed to adhear to the same set of rules as automobiles. Pedestrians have their own, sidewalk-based rules. This is a good system. Not without potential challenges, but it works.

The most serious problem, IMHO, and the one that gets "drivers" up in arms, but frankly also pisses me off when I have my "pedestrian" hat on is when cyclists switch between rules sets on a whim. When cyclists switch at random it makes it extremely difficult to anticipate their future road / sidewalk usage and therefore any potential interaction or 'impact' points.

Please, for the sake of our rules based society, just pick some rules and stick with 'em!
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  #3410  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2014, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacrifice333 View Post
I'm a walker, driver, or cyclist depending on the day.

And as those three I have a huge problem with many cyclists. Not because they have low morals or break many laws. My beef is that many cyclists pick which set of "rules" they'll follow on a moment-by-moment basis.

Bicyclist are supposed to adhear to the same set of rules as automobiles. Pedestrians have their own, sidewalk-based rules. This is a good system. Not without potential challenges, but it works.

The most serious problem, IMHO, and the one that gets "drivers" up in arms, but frankly also pisses me off when I have my "pedestrian" hat on is when cyclists switch between rules sets on a whim. When cyclists switch at random it makes it extremely difficult to anticipate their future road / sidewalk usage and therefore any potential interaction or 'impact' points.

Please, for the sake of our rules based society, just pick some rules and stick with 'em!

^ Could you offer examples for the sake of discussion?

I'm also a walker, transit user, driver, and cyclist, depending on the situation. An example I can think of off the top of my head is that cyclists sometimes ride on the sidewalk, but that is frequently due to them reaching their destination (a business, a residence, etc.) and the bike racks are located on a sidewalk. It's unsafe to ride one's bike in the street and then come to a stop beside parked cars in a travel lane, dismount, and then maneuver the bike through the gap in cars to the sidewalk and the destination. Instead, many cyclists will ride on the sidewalk of their destination block (at walking speed if they are considerate, not at walking speed if they are not) and then dismount, lock up, etc., at their destination. On-street bike corrals solve this problem perfectly, but they also require the reallocation of some road space from car parking to bike parking, albeit at far higher parking densities (a dozen bikes in the space of a single car).

Another prime example is turning left. Unless one is on a street retrofitted to bikes, like 10th Avenue, if you want to turn left one must merge into the left lane and await their turn to either turn in a left turn bay, or remain in the travel lane and turn left when it is safe to do so. If you are not a regular urban cyclist you do not know how vulnerable this is makes you feel. Full stop. I'm an experienced commuter cyclist with more than a dozen years of nearly daily riding in Vancouver, Toronto, and now Richmond, and without a doubt this is the single most stressful and dangerous activity one can perform on a bike.

For most cyclists it is perceived as being too dangerous to contemplate, and instead they proceed through the intersection in the curb lane adjacent to the crosswalk, or in it if intersection through traffic is heavy, and they then stop at the far corner and reorient before crossing in the curb travel lane at the next cycle of the lights. This "two point left turn" allows a cyclist to safely make a left turn at a major intersection but to pedestrians and drivers it appears as if the cyclists is 'acting like a pedestrian' by using the crosswalk and not turning left like a car. Most drivers and pedestrians are long gone by the time the cyclist completes their two point turn and give it no further thought, save for mentally adding another 'transgression' to naughty-or-nice register of cyclist behavior. Rhetorically, how many parents on this forum would take their kid for a ride and make a left turn in the street at, say, 41st and Cambie? How about Number 3 Road and Williams Road in Richmond, where there are no side streets or alternatives to the major road grid? Both those examples include bike lanes on one of the intersecting streets and are, thus, preferred bike routes in a city.

The other frustrating thing for many left-turning cyclists is pedestrian-controlled or sensor-driven T-intersections. I encounter one daily on my ride into work at Minoru Blvd and Blundel Rd. in Richmond. Blundel is the main street and Minoru T-intersections into it. There are in-road sensors but they are calibrated to cars and they do not respond to the presence of a cyclist. The intersection street signals are programed to be continuously green for Blundel unless a pedestrian presses the walk signal or a vehicle rests on a sensor. I regularly encounter situations where I am waiting to turn left onto east-bound Blundel, in the left turn bay south-bound on Minoru, and the lights just never change to let me turn. If no cars come along and dwell on the left-turn sensor that light just won't change. In situations like this, including Monday morning of this week when I was waiting for more than three minutes (I counted) for the light to change due to a car or pedestrian (good luck, it's suburban Richmond), I turned and rode through the crosswalk over to the sidewalk and pressed the pedestrian crossing button, which triggered the light to change so fast that I could not make my way back to the left turn bay, and instead rode to the far side of the street and then turned left and resumed my commute on Blundel.

TL;DR: there are situations when cyclists 'act like pedestrians' because of incomplete street design and it's frustrating to all parties. The solution is to fix the streets and change behaviour by having a safe and practical alternative.
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Last edited by SFUVancouver; Jul 16, 2014 at 12:36 AM.
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  #3411  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2014, 1:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
^ Could you offer examples for the sake of discussion?
At the risk of putting words into his mouth, I believe what he's talking about is unpredictability. Traveling in a lane, for example, and then suddenly veering left without warning. As a motorist (and I too also drive as well as walk and bike in roughly equal measure), that's my biggest fear when I'm near cyclists. And as a cyclist it's my biggest fear when I'm near pedestrians, and when motorists are near me.

In my experience motorists tend to be more predicable and cyclists less, but no category is without its ample share of idiots which give the sensible majority a bad name.
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  #3412  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2014, 3:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacrifice333 View Post
The most serious problem, IMHO, and the one that gets "drivers" up in arms, but frankly also pisses me off when I have my "pedestrian" hat on is when cyclists switch between rules sets on a whim. When cyclists switch at random it makes it extremely difficult to anticipate their future road / sidewalk usage and therefore any potential interaction or 'impact' points.
So, separated infrastructure.
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  #3413  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2014, 6:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Porfiry View Post
So, separated infrastructure.
It's so obvious, isn't it? You'd think that everyone would agree on what a sensible idea this is.
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  #3414  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2014, 7:44 PM
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It's so obvious, isn't it? You'd think that everyone would agree on what a sensible idea this is.
I agree with separated infrastructure and better laws. If we had rules and infrastructure for cycling like the dutch have for example everyone would be happier and safer. Take for example a round about. A typical roundabout here has cyclists having to decide who they are before entering it. Hmm do I feel like a "vehicle" or a "pedestrian"? Do I ride with the vehicles, or do I go through the crosswalks and dismount and walk like a pedestrian. But why does a cyclist have to choose? Why are we designing stuff like this? Cyclists should be riding on a separate path around the round about and drivers should be yielding to them, along with pedestrians.

The laws also need to catch up. I don't think that the use of elephants feet for example or crosswalks meant to be able to be cycled across has been clearly defined.

The problem with the system of cyclists following the same set of rules as automobiles is troubling and cyclists are forced to pick and choose between being a cyclist all of the time by design and lack of infrastructure. In my opinion a cyclist shouldn't be a vehicle. Cyclists should have their own rules. Cyclists should be allowed to just be a cyclist on their own infrastructure. Where infrastructure is shared autos and cyclists should be on the same level, ie. the same speeds, meaning more 30km/h speed limits on any shared road, otherwise separation whether it is a just painted bike lane or it is fully separated. We are light years behind countries that have advanced cycling both in law and in infrastructure and with current spending levels cycling won't catch up.
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  #3415  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2014, 1:20 AM
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There is always room for more bikelane photos. Here's the new-ish bikelane piece on Smithe Street.



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  #3416  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 8:34 PM
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The separated lane on Cambie from Marine to Kent is mostly finished. Cambie lanes are very narrow and I foresee significant issues with the design of this along with the sky train station. There are a considerable amount of drop-offs/pickups in that area with individuals along with shuttles to various offices and now there is no place for that anymore. Wasn't really thought out overly well.
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  #3417  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by theKB View Post
The separated lane on Cambie from Marine to Kent is mostly finished. Cambie lanes are very narrow and I foresee significant issues with the design of this along with the sky train station. There are a considerable amount of drop-offs/pickups in that area with individuals along with shuttles to various offices and now there is no place for that anymore. Wasn't really thought out overly well.
I ride here every day. The whole area has always been a "no stopping" zone, so people are now physically prevented from breaking the rules.
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  #3418  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 9:23 PM
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Lady driving in the bike lane along Burrard.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...list-1.2729054

As mentioned on reddit there was some bollard, I wonder if they removed it for construction or if another idiot just drove over it.
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  #3419  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 10:58 PM
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After watching the video, I would give the cyclist (the one that slammed on the breaks) the benefit of the doubt, but it wouldn't surprise me if he knew what was about to happen. I use to ride a lot and was pretty good at anticipating what a driver was about to do. Especially when they are signalling that they are about to do something dangerous. I guarantee you every cyclist that uses Burrard regularly knows that this is a dangerous spot. Cyclists love confrontation with cars.

That being said, there needs to be some kind of control there, and I presume there are plenty of other intersections like this. But this intersection is especially dangerous as cyclists have built up a lot of speed through this section. One way to eliminate these conflicts is to have the bike lane in the middle of Burrard.
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  #3420  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
After watching the video, I would give the cyclist (the one that slammed on the breaks) the benefit of the doubt, but it wouldn't surprise me if he knew what was about to happen. I use to ride a lot and was pretty good at anticipating what a driver was about to do. Especially when they are signalling that they are about to do something dangerous. I guarantee you every cyclist that uses Burrard regularly knows that this is a dangerous spot. Cyclists love confrontation with cars.

That being said, there needs to be some kind of control there, and I presume there are plenty of other intersections like this. But this intersection is especially dangerous as cyclists have built up a lot of speed through this section. One way to eliminate these conflicts is to have the bike lane in the middle of Burrard.
Well he appeared out of nowhere so I'm pretty sure he saw the part of her driving down the bike lane.

And at least she did a good job of braking before she clipped him.
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